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A More Tactical BC2

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  • #31
    Re: A More Tactical BC2

    Let's cut through the crap first. Many of us here at TG play hardcore every day. There is a very large amount of players out there also play the game tactically and successfully or we as TG'ers would not be playing it. If that's possible there why isn't it possible here at TG?

    You need admin presence and players will to work the server. That didn't exist before but it's here now and there is absolutely no reason why TG can't run a tactical Hardcore server. If you don't like it, that's fine but you don't have to play it either.

    yes that means you have to find the players such as emale, jack and myself who like to play hardcore on a regular basis and get them involved with the server. That's why we're tg'ers and volunteer our time to help run servers.


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    • #32
      Re: A More Tactical BC2

      By all means, change server 2 to hardcore. I wouldn´t want any fellow TGers to stop playing because there´s no hardcore option. But hardcore mode does not mean a more tactical gameplay, instead you die more often and you´re hindered because of restrictions in the gameplay, which for me means a less fun gaming experience.
      Instead, practice a lot and stick to your squad, that´s what works best for tactical gameplay in BC2.
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      • #33
        Re: A More Tactical BC2

        There seems to be a conflict of different cultures (from different games within TG). One of my IHS captains, LordMeatWad, remarked about this back in the beta. We have members from Vanilla BF2, POE, PR, BF2142, COD and a few more in all the various incarnations. There are going to be conflicts and disagreements where the boundaries are and where the middle line stands.

        Again there are two remaining servers, which as far as I can see are basically identical except for play mode currently set. There is no Main Server. Use server #1 for hardcore in whatever conditions the HC population want and use server #2 in standard Mixed Rush or Conquest (the admin staff can switch).

        It should be noted that the Vietnam mod due out later this year. This is a pay DLC similar to other EA/Dice products; i.e. Northern Strike and will require a separate server(s) (else those with out it will be probably be kicked from the server during its rotation).


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        • #34
          Re: A More Tactical BC2

          I was never one to engage in a Hardcore vs. Normal debate, because, for all intents and purposes, this is what this thread is degrading to, despite the arguments being made.

          I'm all for increasing teamwork and tactical gameplay, but I fail to see how switching any given server to hardcore PROMOTES these elements. Based on what I've gathered, it sounds like the arguments for hardcore mode is that 3D spotting, the minimaps, and the extra HP somehow watersdown the tactical gameplay and teamwork. Aren't these intended elements built into the game? By incorporating the tools of the game given to us, we're just communicating the way it's intended by the game. If this supposedly waters down the teamwork, then I don't see how TG can be non-hypocritical and host other Battlefield games like BF2 and 2142 which have these very same elements (if anything, BC2's minimaps are spotting elements are less powerful than its predecessors).

          I agree with other members here, if you feel that hardcore is more conducive to tactical gameplay and teamwork, then by all means, change one of the servers, but please don't change both. I'm a new member here, who signed up for supporting membership because I love this community, introduced to this community by this game... the normal version. It's the only game I play here. I don't think I would have every come to this community if it didn't have a normal server. As selfish as that sounds, it's also reality.


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          • #35
            Re: A More Tactical BC2

            Hardcore or Vanilla, we will have more tactical BC2 only if we play it tactically. Run and gun is a use full tactic used when storming enemy positions. Its a must when bleeding tickets in conquest Hardcore or Vanilla. Unless you working on your K\D you should be providing spawn point within enemy flag perimeter.

            One Hardcore and one Normal is fine with me as long we get rid off 3D spotting.
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            • #36
              Re: A More Tactical BC2

              As an experiment, we changed server two to the following settings:

              Hardcore: no
              Killcam: no
              Minimap: no
              Crosshair: no
              3D spotting: no
              Minimap spotting: no
              Third person vehicle cameras: yes

              I'll start another thread for feedback.

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              • #37
                Re: A More Tactical BC2

                I think that's a good start for vanilla settings project but most of the hardcore players like the hardcore setting on. That's what really changes the dynamic of the game.


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                • #38
                  Re: A More Tactical BC2

                  just a thought....it seems on a mixed server you would have more run and gun....simply because of the fact that one game mode(rush) is designed for storming/rushing the enemies objective. Then you switch to conquest and everyone is still in run n gun mode....makes sense to me. I have played HC as well and am having a hard time seeing how HC would promote more tactical play on a rush game....the objective is still the same.
                  "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

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                  • #39
                    Re: A More Tactical BC2

                    Originally posted by venman View Post
                    just a thought....it seems on a mixed server you would have more run and gun....simply because of the fact that one game mode(rush) is designed for storming/rushing the enemies objective. Then you switch to conquest and everyone is still in run n gun mode....makes sense to me. I have played HC as well and am having a hard time seeing how HC would promote more tactical play on a rush game....the objective is still the same.
                    Rush is tough but not impossible. Conquest is really where hardcore should be played.


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                    • #40
                      Re: A More Tactical BC2

                      Originally posted by Vulcan View Post
                      Rush is tough but not impossible. Conquest is really where hardcore should be played.
                      I agree with that Vulcan....I like conquest better anyway
                      "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

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                      • #41
                        Re: A More Tactical BC2

                        By removing the mini-map,
                        The minimap is a *crucial* tool for teamwork. It is used for revives, ammo drops, to locate friendly spots, to see where firefights are -- to quickly disseminate information. The type of comms that would replace the minimap are just spam -- large volume, low-value comms. These are best kept on the minimap to reduce "noise" -- the less noise a player deals in terms of "need ammo dropped here and here", the more that team comms can be utilized to speak about important things such as "they're shifting north, and we're unprepared".

                        Removing the minimap does not make BC2 a more tactical or more teamwork-oriented game. It simply creates a large-volume/low-value "noise" comms. It makes the player's job of teamworking and creating advanced tactics more difficult -- it doesn't incite high-level strategies and inter-squad cooperation.

                        By removing ... the red-triangle over spotted enemy heads
                        3D spots quickly relay information to the entire team about hostile contacts. This information can be used for squad or team-wide strategies: the fact that it's available quickly and to the entire team (not just TS users) greatly facilitates teamwork and allows for advanced tactics on the fly.
                        Removing the 3D red-dot removes information from the game (hostile spotted contacts), and the alternative is to introduce a lot of spam-like comms. This makes the job of creating high-level strategical constructs much harder.
                        In fairness, the 3D red dots do help in the un-TG shooting: you shouldn't be able to hit an enemy you can see from far away by simply aiming at a magical red dot.
                        Does that (in my opinion, relatively rare) action outweigh the teamwork benefit of simple and quick information about hostile contacts? Would the benefit of its removal (ie. no more magical shooting) really outweigh the fact that simple contacts spotting information would need to be spammed in the entire channel?
                        I don't think so. However, this is an an admin decision. I personally believe this would make teamwork and tactics harder (ie. it's a lot more difficult to flank enemies if you don't know they're there) at the expense of eliminating a rare un-TG-like behavior.

                        By ... making each non-lethal hit reduce a player's visability (red screening)
                        HC damage are three different thigs -- higher bullet damage, no health regeneration, permanent red screen on wounding.

                        Does this incite teamwork and tactics? No effect. If a player was objective-motivated, he would stick close to his medics. However, if he was score-motivated, he would snipe because of the higher damage.
                        There's no net effect on the server -- HC doesn't make a server more teamwork-oriented. Setting HC on doesn't magically make people more objective-oriented or more intelligent. It makes it easier to kill hostiles -- this is true regardless of whether you're interested in teamwork or sniper score padding.

                        ---

                        EMale -- it's admirable that you're trying to create a more TG server. I want a more teamwork-oriented and tactical server too.
                        However, for each proposed changed, you've got to ask questions: does this really incite more teamwork? Does it really allow for advanced tactics? Does it help players work with each other? Does it punish lonewolves or everyone equally? Does it reward teamworkers, or just reward everyone?

                        The changes you've proposed do not make our server more teamwork-oriented or players more tactically-focused. I welcome the discussion, but I do not agree with your suggestions.

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                        • #42
                          Re: A More Tactical BC2

                          Zhohar,

                          You equate those elements of the game that make it easy to operate independently (red triangles, minimaps ...) with teamwork.

                          This is illogical. These things reduce the need for teamwork, make it easier to move and act without comms and squad work, and function to reduce the entire side to one big faux-squad.

                          There is little that is either skill-based or team-based about lighting an enemy up with a red dot and then, and we all know what happens next -- everyone in the team within range opens fire on the dot.

                          This is not 'team work' or tactics' or communication in the sense that TG has strived for in the past.

                          It is merely taking advantage of gamey, unnecessary features.
                          sigpic

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                          • #43
                            Re: A More Tactical BC2

                            That's what I don't understand. If they're "unnecessary", why are they perfectly accepted in vanilla BF2 and 2142? Taking these features out makes it a completely different game unnatural to how it was designed. Say there was no TS. Q-spotting a friend to call for meds/ammo is fishy at best, and if they're farther from a shouting distance, you'd have no clue they needed meds/ammo without the minimap.

                            I just don't understand how these features are "unnecessary" when they're staples in previous Battlefield installments, especially when hardcore mode isn't native to this game, with so many features rendered irrelevant/near useless in hardcore mode.

                            Spotting, mini-map, and all other BF-related features aren't meant to replace tactical gameplay or communication, but instead, used as tools to help achieve these ends.


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                            • #44
                              Re: A More Tactical BC2

                              We haven't fielded a real vanilla BF2 in quite some years, but one thing that is different is that the Q-spotting in vanilla does not show up on the 3d gameworld, only on your minimap. Thus, while you know the general direction of the enemy, you still have to actively search it unless you just pray and spray a wide area. This stuff was removed in Tacticalmod in preference to a static red dot, and in PR similarly, until in PR the only way to get a red dot is for your SL to call in a contact on his radio and have the Commander approve it.

                              Similarly, in the mod Forgotten Hope 2, the red dots only work within "shouting distance", that is people near you. Someone on objective C can't spot someone on objective A for you while you're at base.

                              <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
                              <04:16:25> "|TG-XV| Tralic": this channel is so gay
                              DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

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                              • #45
                                Re: A More Tactical BC2

                                Originally posted by Pvt Brokeback View Post
                                Spotting, mini-map, and all other BF-related features aren't meant to replace tactical gameplay or communication, but instead, used as tools to help achieve these ends.
                                The mere fact that such features are ubiquitous does not indicate their quality. You must keep in mind that these games are designed to appeal to very young players -- thus such features that make it easy to play on ones own and easy to kill.

                                I have yet to see a convincing explanation of how spotting an enemy, or god-like minimaps that reveal far too much, assists teamwork.

                                The reality of the situation, seen in the current style of play, is that the assist independent action.

                                I keep seeing the concept of 'tactical' reduced to the noton of 'easy' and highly artificial means of locating enemy.

                                This 'red triangle' and excess of enemy location information is not tactical play. It is simply play.

                                As we all know well, most of the time, we know were the enemy is as a result of 15 people constantly 'spotting' 15 other people. This promotes tactical play? No. This simply aids the excessively high rate of kills, and degrades the one thing essential for many tactics -- surprise, secrecy, moving without the enemy's knowledge -- things that are at present marginal and short lived.

                                I think, but I am not certain, that the game can be tweaked to achieve a greater sophistication in tactics, comms, and squad cohesion.

                                But hey, I am obviously quite happy to keep playing the way things are -- these are merely suggestions.
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