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A More Tactical BC2

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  • #61
    Re: A More Tactical BC2

    Haha yeah but BC2 isn't about realism at all..
    Nubhar

    - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

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    • #62
      Re: A More Tactical BC2

      Originally posted by E-Male View Post
      And yes, my wish is precisely this -- to make the game harder. To create conditions that would foster tighter teamwork and more tactical movement BECAUSE one does not always know the location of the enemy.
      E-Male, I'm not seeing the connection. Making the game harder is not automatically congruent to fostering teamwork, tactical behaviour, or even tactical movement.

      Adding a map grid, for example, or a non-rotating map, would foster greater tactical behaviour and improve communication. Neither would make the game harder.

      If you feel that you aren't getting enough of a challenge from the game, you can ratchet the difficulty upward without having to force anyone else to follow your example: Limit yourself to shotguns on maps with large open spaces, or use nothing but the T88 LMG, or walk everywhere instead of running.

      You're falling prey to an XY fallacy here: You want to see more teamwork, believe that this can be achieved by making the game harder, so you're asking to make the game harder. There's very little to find remarkable in my resistance to your suggestion when I don't accept your original premise.




      Who needs a life when you can have a heavy bolter?
      --BlackMirror
      <23:03:38> "|TG|Smachin<BF Admin>" was kicked from the server by "|TG-70th| Zhohar" (UNDERAGE ban.)
      Anything over $600, and it would be pointless to try and reason with Grandma
      --Blackraven93

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      • #63
        Re: A More Tactical BC2

        Originally posted by Abel View Post
        Haha yeah but BC2 isn't about realism at all..
        This is where the player difference comes in. Some don't want to play it realistically which is fine and some do. When players start to see themselves doing things like having to lead shots to hit a target and actually use the hash marks on a scope to hit targets and many other things that are realistic in nature, they tend to want to capitalize on those things to make the game more challenging and less unrealistic. A lot of the common mechanics in bc2 are realistic but taken for granted or not even noticed.

        Anyway I think this subject has been talked to death, maybe it'll happen maybe it won't, we'll see. Either way game on.


        - -

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        • #64
          Re: A More Tactical BC2

          There is a difference between realism and tactics. I see none of the former but a lot of the latter.



          Former TG-21st
          Swift Mobile On Target

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          • #65
            Re: A More Tactical BC2

            Some don't want to play it realistically which is fine and some do.

            Trying to play BC2 realistically is like trying to squeeze your manfeet into highheels. You can do it if you have a special fetish, but it will be very painful. Why force something upon BC2 so hard when you can just go play PR.

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            • #66
              Re: A More Tactical BC2

              Originally posted by Lyramion View Post
              Trying to play BC2 realistically is like trying to squeeze your manfeet into highheels. You can do it if you have a special fetish, but it will be very painful. Why force something upon BC2 so hard when you can just go play PR.
              Very well said!


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              • #67
                Re: A More Tactical BC2

                Originally posted by Lyramion View Post
                Trying to play BC2 realistically is like trying to squeeze your manfeet into highheels. You can do it if you have a special fetish, but it will be very painful.
                Sounds like the voice of experience, Lyra. We want photos!

                ...On second thought, no, we don't.

                Why force something upon BC2 so hard when you can just go play PR.
                +rep.




                Who needs a life when you can have a heavy bolter?
                --BlackMirror
                <23:03:38> "|TG|Smachin<BF Admin>" was kicked from the server by "|TG-70th| Zhohar" (UNDERAGE ban.)
                Anything over $600, and it would be pointless to try and reason with Grandma
                --Blackraven93

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                • #68
                  Re: A More Tactical BC2

                  It is amazing to see the backlash of trying to get more tactical here in this game title. It also amazes me the posts that I have been reading from long time members to members who have just joined TG about trying to not to do what TG has been here for...Tactical Team Play. I honestly think you guys are too scared to try stuff OR your just to lazy. Either way this game can be played the TG way, it has to come from the community base and right now this community base really is a little off on what TG is.

                  Last time I played i got to here how people should go do this and this or that, TOTALLY not TG tactics. I also got to here every-time someone dies. You guys need to realize that why us 'old people' are complaining is not because we cant shoot people, i have long gotten over that, it is because we are seeing people throw the TG tags on, get into IHS, and for the most part spout off here in the fourms when the information they are giving is really not TG. You guys are afraid to step up to lead and love to throw the tactical games in our face when we try and bring what TG is has always been to this title. Ya I do not play every night, but the times I do play, I expect TG quality game play and I never get that, all i get is kids running around trying to pad their stats with wookie suits or take game exploits to the max...not cool guys.

                  Why dont we as a community try and step up and do the right thing and start making this a different game here at TG. Maybe start with team leadership and then work on coms, but we need to start doing things instead of making up excuses!






                  "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

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                  • #69
                    Re: A More Tactical BC2

                    Originally posted by Lyramion View Post
                    Trying to play BC2 realistically is like trying to squeeze your manfeet into highheels. You can do it if you have a special fetish, but it will be very painful. Why force something upon BC2 so hard when you can just go play PR.
                    I definitely see where you are coming from and agree in part, but remember that PR is just BF2 after people got all "tactical"(however you want to describe their intent with the changes) on it. Obviously the drastic changes are beyond us. We do have some control and a established community to draw on to support those changes.

                    No bunny hopping rules still blow some peoples mind and we have no software supported way of enforcing it. We rely on the community. Same with the chain of command rules.

                    Also the comparison to playing Project Reality is pretty far off, more like Point of Existence 2(no UAV, no scan, but did have CO spot, minimap and working VOIP :/ ).

                    Anyways we can certainly play this way if we want. I know I like the idea of certain features being disabled. Mainly the ones that encourage doing nothing but running full speed and firing your weapon all the time.
                    |TG-12th| Namebot

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                    • #70
                      Re: A More Tactical BC2

                      This comment is not directed at anyone specifically, but to the thread as a whole:

                      Let's remember that just because someone has a differing opinion DOES NOT mean that they are wrong or "unTG." Disagreements will happen, and TG does an excellent job of taking that in stride and coming together as a whole.

                      As it has been stated many times before: fast and slow play to not equate to non-tactical and tactical respectively. The aim of server changes should be to encourage tactical play; this is of course up for much interpretation.

                      BC2 is a completely different animal than any of the battlefield titles; trying to reign it in to fit any mold will end up with disappointment. For example, I thought BC2 was just going to be 2142 updated. But instead of that, let's take the game as it is, and deal with it alone; not how it compares to other titles.

                      We will never achieve "realism" in BC2. Is that something that we as the BC2 community want to strive for? Well, that's up in the air. But never the less, BC2 is BC2; the notion shouldn't even pass our minds to turn it into another game. Why? Because it's impossible; it's alchemy.

                      But what we can do, is change the way we, as a community, as IHSs, as individuals look at the game. I'm not advocating any sort of specific shirt here, just stating ideas. For example, sticking with your squad. This was fundamental in the other BF titles, yet squads run all over the place. Yeah, I do it too sometimes; the game seems to encourage it. After all, I can just spawn on a SM once I die.

                      For the sake of thought, I'll give a metaphor I used to use when I was low brass section leader: look at yourself as the problem first, if that fails, look to the instrument. Too often to musicians automatically criticize their mouthpiece, or the instrument they are playing for shortcomings and mistakes. Yes, the instrument and mouthpiece are integral, but I prefer to look at myself first. Am I doing the right thing, at the right time, the right way? If not, only then, can you look to your tools.

                      Before we change the game, let's look at what we the players are doing. Let's take a step back, breathe a bit, then keep talking it out.

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                      • #71
                        Re: A More Tactical BC2

                        Originally posted by Jack Bauer View Post
                        It is amazing to see the backlash of trying to get more tactical here in this game title.
                        It's not a backlash against making the game more tactical. The proposed ideas (in OP) do not actually make the game more TG or more tactical.

                        There isn't a backlash against making this game more tactical or to increase the teamwork within the game.
                        There *IS* a backlash against suggestions that don't actually make sense. None of the suggestions in the OP actually make a more TG server.

                        Personally speaking, I certainly would prefer a TG server that has more teamwork, better communication, better squad and team tactics.

                        Just so we're all on the same page -- this thread isn't about realism. Abel, Lyra, etc -- OP is about increasing teamwork and tactics; not about realism.

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                        • #72
                          Re: A More Tactical BC2

                          Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                          There *IS* a backlash against suggestions that don't actually make sense. None of the suggestions in the OP actually make a more TG server.

                          Personally speaking, I certainly would prefer a TG server that has more teamwork, better communication, better squad and team tactics.

                          Just so we're all on the same page -- this thread isn't about realism. Abel, Lyra, etc -- OP is about increasing teamwork and tactics; not about realism.
                          Indeed, realism is not the issue at hand, but better comms, more opportunities for a greater variety of tactics -- these are gained by not artificially knowing where all the enemy are via red triangles floating in the air.

                          Not knowing is hard. Harder challenges require more advanced communication and teamwork.

                          Mature gaming demands more puzzle solving, less gaming techniques that give away the enemy position.

                          It is simply logical.
                          sigpic

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                          • #73
                            Re: A More Tactical BC2

                            Not knowing is hard. Harder challenges require more advanced communication and teamwork.
                            Relaying contact reports would still happen -- this is crucial team information. Except that this relay work would happen significantly less quickly, less accurately, and less thoroughly. And this relay work would also be taking valuable comms space that ought to be reserved for high-level team decisions.

                            Individual players are still doing the same work -- relaying enemy contact positions -- except now they're doing so less efficiently. That isn't teamwork, tactics, or advanced comms. It's simple inefficiency.

                            The removal of ONE method of contact reporting will not create better communicators. It will simply result in players communicating that information through another mean -- via VOIP, via ingame text -- whatever way is easiest to convey that information.

                            The removal of ONE method of contact reporting does not impact or affect any other form of player communication. There is no argument in saying that removing 3D spotting will affect players' comms in any fashion beside forcing them to relay the same information in a different manner.

                            The 3D spotting should be removed because it violates the TG spirit in terms of unrealistic aiming, not because TG is about forcing inefficient communication on its members.

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                            • #74
                              Re: A More Tactical BC2

                              Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                              Individual players are still doing the same work -- relaying enemy contact positions -- except now they're doing so less efficiently. That isn't teamwork, tactics, or advanced comms. It's simple inefficiency.
                              Here we see the crux of the flawed logic. Increasing the "efficiency" of game mechanics in such a way that the enemy's location is almost constantly known is here equated with better tactical play.

                              Artificially giving away most enemy positions is not affording better tactics, it is simply eroding the ability of your enemy to use a set of tactics that rely on stealth.

                              There is absolutely no logic to the suggestion that having near constant awareness of the enemy's position (which arguably results from the mass presence of the red triangles) increases tactical possibilities.

                              All the red spotting ever did was make it easier to shoot at targets that many otherwise would not have seen. As others have noted, this led to increased rate of frags.

                              Individual players are still doing the same work -- relaying enemy contact positions -- except now they're doing so less efficiently. That isn't teamwork, tactics, or advanced comms. It's simple inefficiency.
                              It is simply not true that comms are becoming less efficient. A number of players report that comms are excellent now when in squad-based TS channels. There appears to be a movement towards squad-based TS channels, independent of the other issues, and this is a good thing.

                              The 3D spotting should be removed because it violates the TG spirit in terms of unrealistic aiming, not because TG is about forcing inefficient communication on its members.
                              3D spotting should be removed because it makes the game too easy.
                              sigpic

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                              • #75
                                Re: A More Tactical BC2

                                Would you agree that the pace BC2 is far quicker than BF2 and 2142? If you replied yes then it seems to me that the tactical shortfall is with the nonexistent Command Structure, i.e., CO, SL, SM rather server settings. Four squads of four with no real direction are just not going to make an impact like an army. VOIP might help and TS might as well but once again IMO the pace of the game will negate real time intel in TS unless as a squad you are running the edges of the map. In a close quarter fire fight telling me someone is behind me is not going to help. You say it and before I can react I am hit. The other BF series had enough open space that good comms won a round, period. IMO BC2 can be like paying in a Titan corridor, it can be blindingly fast.

                                Just an observation.

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