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  • BCII Effective Squad Size

    Hi Possibly this has been discussed but I thought it deserves a separate thread. I have found that a 6 man squad is the minimum squad size and a good one for gaming. a four man squad does not allow you to split the squad (a tactic I often used to help other squads assaulting while I hold a flag). A four man squad can not split since two men can not effectively hold or take a flag. Without inter team coms a bunch of four man squads seems lacking any significant strength to accomplish the flexible roles of holding and defenging against greater numbers rushing in on your flag or to do the same without a significant commanders effort. Oh and not to mention the effort of a single commander of that many more squads to manage.

    Comments?

  • #2
    Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

    I've liked the 6-man squad idea in the previous BF titles a lot, but the "spawn on anyone" mechanic probably throws a monkey wrench into the squad size. 4-man squads are pretty difficult to eradicate (it's difficult to control breakthrough), and I imagine with 6, the attackers would have a significant advantage.
    I'm in favour of playing this version (4-man, spawn on anyone) before judging it too much. There's some interesting dynamics to be had -- I'd rather give them a chance and explore them before running back to the tried-tested-excellent formula of the previous BF titles.

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    • #3
      Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

      You cant split the squad into fireteams because as squad of 4 IS a fireteam :) I've also found that the spawn-on-anyone makes the squad feel bigger... or at least retain the staying power of a traditional six man squad.

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      • #4
        Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

        My problem with the 4 man squad with the staying power of 6 is that the 6 people (speaking from my 2142 experience) had to work hard together to keep up and now its just let the last man alive stay up till another spawn. It feels like it really decreases the value of life in the game.
        Reapator, overlord of ponies

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        • #5
          Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

          Originally posted by Reaperassault View Post
          now its just let the last man alive stay up till another spawn. It feels like it really decreases the value of life in the game.

          THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE DEFENDING TEAM countering a small SQUAD(S):

          -It forces the defending team to contemplate idea of complete eradication very seriously
          -They cannot be so quick to assume that everyone in their defense perimeter is eliminated
          -The threats start multiplying exponentially when even two squads penetrate your defenses
          -You must make constant patrols and understand the risk of defending your front line of defense leaving your objectives exposed in rush mode...

          THE VALUE OF A LIFE:

          -In reality, it spreads the responsibility of SL to all the players within that squad...and that's not necessarily a bad thing...it gives everybody an equal chance of becoming the most important person when the time comes if it ever should reach that point
          -Some people might hide in the back and stay alvie as a safe spawnpoint but they might be eliminated (THIS IS A SERIOUS RISK)
          -I would say that it actually increases the value of everyone's life in the game...with 2142 the SL was the one and only person you had to protect...now it's whoever is in the best position to survive and hold out for reinforcements....
          -It's the fluidity of this position that makes people choose more careful tactics when moving behind enemy lines...you could become the next spawnpoint if your entire squad dies and if you don't stay alive your squad will spend an INORDINATE amount of time trekking back into the enemy strongholds...that is what kills the tickets...when you have to push back into enemy territory...

          CONCLUSIONS:

          -As a result of smaller groups...you become more tight knit and more reliant on one another as individuals with a greater role to play...rather than depend on the large size of a 6-man squad
          -We want to believe that the numbers in a squad directly correlates to the effectiveness of accomplishing certain tasks on the battlefield....that's both true and false in many situations(too many to count)
          -As a group, the inter-squad communication becomes ever more important...there are more groups accomplishing a smaller portion of the task...

          -Instead of one full squad defending an objective like in 2142, you might need two full 4 man squads....that's the hard part and the real question behind this thread...if the developers don't implement this dedicated channel and we don't have a commander...how the heck are we going to coordinate as a team?
          Last edited by TheSc1entist; 02-12-2010, 06:00 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

            Without a commander to call out and coordinate the removal of an enemy squad I think 6 would be too many and could cause serious problems for the opposing team. Think how hard it is to dislodge a good squad of six with a commander spotting and guiding their team. Now imagine the commander is gone and you can spawn on anyone.

            Although I miss playing six players four feels more balanced for this game.
            sigpic

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            "Remember to pillage BEFORE you burn!"


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            • #7
              Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

              Their recent tournament for the BC2beta featured teams of 12. Since voip seems to be only for each fireteam (4man), I think that's good enough. Just have to specialize them. Since TS3 does not have a channel commander, what we could do is create a channel for the "squad leaders" if there is such a thing for BC2, so they can coordinate the attack at that SL level. They can then use ingame voip to commuicate low level strategy.

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              • #8
                Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                Originally posted by DocGuo View Post

                -It forces the defending team to contemplate idea of complete eradication very seriously
                My mind read this and completely flipped it over
                I thought that in conquest mode, map bleed will probably be week, so camping people for tickets = the win, and camping a 4 man squad = ticket bleed. So its not eradication, its leave the last one alive, to kill the respawners, wave after wave of camping kills. You want an enemy squad down in your bear pit and spawning in again and again to be killed from above, leaving one alive to allow the respawn, kinda like caping a beacon in 2142, but more using the lay of the land for killing zones that you want them stuck in

                ... just speculating on game mode tactics

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                • #9
                  Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                  Originally posted by Exploding_Silver View Post
                  You want an enemy squad down in your bear pit and spawning in again and again to be killed from above, leaving one alive to allow the respawn, kinda like caping a beacon in 2142, but more using the lay of the land for killing zones that you want them stuck in
                  Letting one attacker stay alive for the slightest chance is a dangerous proposition even at the increased ability of taking tickets away from those attackers....but this should only happen at a certain time during the fight

                  To put it in context:

                  There are many phases of the battle...each requiring a different approach...when we (the defenders) first start off defending...we want to rush to the borders of the two maps and make sure nobody got through...we dig in....and hold the front-lines.....in this situation...staying around the M-COM objective is completely useless....it gets more interesting once one squad has penetrated the defensive perimeter....unfortunately, that's also when things usually fall apart...the front lines dissolve and more attackers start streaming in....

                  regaining that type of control that the defenders had at the start of the game is near impossible............at that early stage, the defenders had to most upper hand and the most efficient way of killing people...

                  The chaos that usually follows is unpredictable...even though it's fun (I like stirring up the hornet's nest whenever I am on the attacking team)....
                  It's a matter of when to try to eradicate...if it's early in the defensive period....try your very best to try to eradicate this enemy....

                  it's easier to kill an enemy that's running at you because he has to break into your defensive perimeter
                  it's much harder to chase after one that's already in your base

                  Therefore....don't let the latter happen by eradicating the squad before they become a nuisance...you can then rejoin your team at the front lines...

                  It's honestly like Toll Station in Camp Gibraltar....you put up a good defense...you can't afford to let attackers meander in and out of your spawn zones...
                  In this case, rush mode is like 4 big toll station maps....there are many different outcomes but the one that always ensures victory for the defenders is the impenetrable front-lines defense.

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                  • #10
                    Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                    I'll throw in my 1 cent worth on this topic. First, "-It forces the defending team to contemplate idea of complete eradication very seriously", have you tried to destroy a 4 man sqd working together with 2 to 4 medics? This can be damn near impossible. Second, in rush mode, if your defending, many times when you 1st spawn in, the enemy is already at A or B and the alarm is sounding, there is no real effective defense that can be set up except for luck..run and gun style. This is because your only recourse is reacting to a situation and not being able to be pro-active. Third, which I did last night myself on conquest, i took a sniper kit with the snitch balls, went from our lines RU to a hidden position behind point A, the US, and just hid in a bush and let people spawn off me to keep taking point A. At no time did I come under any fire. It is hard to see a sniper inside a bush and I would use the snitch balls to help my sqd attack or keep myself aware of enemy near me. Here's the really fun part, I used mortar ability to passsively attack A snice it doesn't actively give my position away :). So again, once the enemy is past whatever front line you might be able to establish, from my experience only chaos reins and the attackers have the advantage. How many snitch balls would the defenders need to throw out to find that one guy being used as a spawn site??? How fast could that be done before more people spawn in on him/her??? How many snipers would it require to cover the are fast with snitch balls to eliminate that sqd? Just a few thoughts on the subject. Now imagine 4 sqds on TS3 working together with a hidden spawn on each side of an objective point, can we say mass chaos :)

                    Rodeo_01

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                    • #11
                      Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                      it's called good detective work and sleuthing....there's only so many places to hide...and only so many routes of attack...some are used more than others...you notice some patterns and start recognizing where the enemy might hide....it's never easy...but you should never give up so easily...Elimination in another sense can mean containment If you have a good sense of where the enemy is and can constantly find the enemy and kill the people who spawn off that "SL" you have in essence eliminated that threat from growing...


                      ....if you don't try to eradicate the enemy squad and find where they are spawning from...if you let them keep spawning in...you become a reactive force that will only allow the chaos to fester and grow....

                      It's a dangerous mindset to allow the enemy to gain and secure a foothold in your spawn zone....

                      Many times a good defending team will know to fall back when the time is right.....the defenders always have the advantage in setting up their defenses....they have this 30 second window of opportunity to fall back and form a defensive line along the next map...the attackers can't enter into that...so I don't think it's impossible to set up a defense...the best defending teams realize that falling back is called "living to fight another day"

                      They don't stay near the new attacker's spawn point unless they're going after enemy armor....

                      With all the harassment in the world, it can not make up for the gaps along the defensive line...

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                      • #12
                        Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                        Another necro-post from me. I just bought the game 2 weeks ago.

                        I have concluded that a squad of 3 is the best for BFBC2.

                        My background is the 21CW tournament although I have not played in many years. I used to write the weekly strats for my division.

                        I look at this from a tops-down logistical point-of-view. Both sides will only have 16 slots so we have to use our 16 better than their 16. By using better I mean always having a firepower/numerical advantage when attacking and only spending what is needed for each task.

                        If you have squads of 4 then you don't have a lot of freedom on where you "spend" your players. You can only have 4 squads (4 x 4 = 16). But with squads of 2 to 3, you can have 6 squads. As a team you can then fine-tune how many players you have assigned to each task.

                        I think I posted this a long time ago but I am contrarian to most when considering squad make-up. I place more importance on effectiveness and redundancy in the primary task than trying to create a "jack-of-all-trades" squad. Making a jack-of-all-trades squad usually means the squad is mediocre at everything too.
                        • Squads of 5-6 can have 2 primary tasks
                        • Squads of 2-3 can have 1 primary task
                          (A squad of 1 isn't a squad and 4 seems to be this gray transition area.)



                        I tested this out by doing a 16 man squad loadout for Heavy Metal and Oasis and reinforced my conclusion and surprised myself with how few medics I used.

                        Basic Squad:
                        1. Primary Mission Kit
                        2. Primary Mission Kit
                        3. Assault


                        That's it! Here are 2 examples.

                        Primary Task: Attack/defend on an armor dominant map.
                        1. Engineer
                        2. Engineer
                        3. Assault


                        Here you are redundant in your primary task with 2 engineers firing anti-vehicle weapons plus an assault kit for a perpetual supply of rockets. Replacing an engineer with a medic could prolong the squad but 2 rocketeers should make quick work of any vehicle.

                        Primary Task: Infiltrate far flags.
                        1. Recon (with close-range weapon, not sniper rifle)
                        2. Recon (with close-range weapon, not sniper rifle)
                        3. Assault


                        There are 2 exceptions. First, if you are driving/piloting a vehicle. Then you have a squad of 2 both engineers

                        Primary Task: Kill armor with helo.
                        1. Engineer (pilot)
                        2. Engineer (gunner/spotter)

                        This could easily be "Kill infantry with tank." If your side holds the near point and the center point in Heavy Metal, you have 5(!) tanks that need to be piloted. Tanks are mass casualty weapons and should always be manned (lest they stolen from you) and driven to the front. They should also be used offensively, not as stationary artillery pieces.

                        Here is the other exception. If your primary mission is "Assault" or "Attack/Defend" on an infantry dominant map, then your primary mission kit is the assault kit and your 3 slot in the squad should be a medic.
                        1. Assault
                        2. Assault
                        3. Medic



                        Now, if you don't control all 16 slots on the server (like we did for the tournament) and insist on a 4-man squad, here is how I would do it.
                        1. Primary Mission Kit
                        2. Primary Mission Kit
                        3. Medic
                        4. Assault



                        So here is a breakdown of a 16 player side in "Heavy Metal."

                        Squad Alpha:
                        Primary Task: Attack next flag using east tank in main base
                        Opening Move: Attack Bravo (center)
                        • Engineer (1)
                        • Engineer (2)


                        Squad Bravo:
                        Primary Task: Attack next flag using west tank in main base
                        Opening Move: Attack Bravo (center)
                        • Engineer (3)
                        • Engineer (4)


                        Squad Charlie:
                        Primary Task: Spoil enemy vehicle attacks (buggies going to rear bases & armor)
                        Opening Move: Attack Bravo (center)
                        • Engineer (5)
                        • Engineer (6)
                        • Engineer (7) (note: support Delta at near flag then pilot locally spawning armor in support of Alpha/Bravo)


                        Squad Delta:
                        Primary Task: Attack/Defend outer flags
                        Opening Move: Walk to near flag, support attacking Bravo with sniping, spotting, & mortars
                        • Recon (8)
                        • Recon (9)
                        • Assault (10) (note: drop ammo box for Delta then gun for Bravo squad in locally spawning armor)


                        Squad Echo:
                        Primary Task: Attack/defend Bravo using north tank spawning locally at Bravo
                        Opening Move: Take west buggy to Bravo
                        • Engineer (11) (note: tank driver)
                        • Engineer (12) (note: tank gunner)
                        • Assault (13) (note: once Bravo secure, either patrol around flag or man UAV)


                        Squad Foxtrot:
                        Primary Task: Attack/defend Bravo using south tank spawning locally at Bravo
                        Opening Move: Take east buggy to Bravo
                        • Engineer (14) (note: tank driver)
                        • Engineer (15) (note: tank gunner)
                        • Assault (16) (note: once Bravo secure, either patrol around flag or man anti-air)


                        So here is a breakdown of a 16 player side in "Oasis."

                        Squad Alpha:
                        Primary Task: Attack/defend near flag
                        Opening Move: Walk to near flag
                        • Assault (1)
                        • Medic (2)


                        Squad Bravo:
                        Primary Task: Infiltrate far flag
                        Opening Move: Walk to far flag using "high road"
                        • Recon (3)
                        • Recon (4)


                        Squad Charlie:
                        Primary Task: Drive or kill APC spawing at Bravo
                        Opening Move: Jeep to Bravo
                        • Engineer (5)
                        • Engineer (6)
                        • Assault (7)


                        Squad Delta:
                        Primary Task: Attack/defend Bravo (center flag)
                        Opening Move: Walk/sail to Bravo
                        • Assault (8)
                        • Assault (9)
                        • Medic (10)


                        Squad Echo:
                        Primary Task: Attack/defend Bravo (center flag)
                        Opening Move: Walk/sail to Bravo
                        • Assault (11)
                        • Assault (12)
                        • Medic (13)


                        Squad Foxtrot:
                        Primary Task: Provide cross-fire in attacking next flag from "high road" and deny enemy use of same
                        Opening Move: Walk to area around UAV station
                        • Assault (14)
                        • Assault (15)
                        • Medic (16)

                        http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/user/58Congo/

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                        • #13
                          Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                          This would be 10x easier with the old BF command structure.



                          Former TG-21st
                          Swift Mobile On Target

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                          • #14
                            Re: BCII Effective Squad Size

                            Originally posted by MacLeod View Post
                            This would be 10x easier with the old BF command structure.
                            Agreed. But with the tournament-style play that I draw my experience from, all of this is planned out far in advance. Squads know their primary task (usually point attack/defense) and how they will get there (opening move). The kit selection is left to them.

                            http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/user/58Congo/

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