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Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwork?

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  • Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwork?

    The 70th tried out TS3 whisper-lists yesterday and had a negative experience with them. For those unaware, whisper lists are essentially what they sound like -- speak only to your squad while in a TS channel, and do not broadcast it to the entire team. This cuts out a lot of communication that isn't relevant to the team.

    It's a very strong possibility that we're judging this too quickly, hence this thread to see other perspectives.

    1. Less team morale. A silent TS channel, combined with broken ingame VOIP leaves less morale in the TS channel. This is a *gigantic* issue, and my #1 reason for never using squad-wide whisper lists again. Especially on the losing side, people lose hope, and there's less co-ordination in the team. This is a very real issue, and it has to be addressed. We're all human, and sitting in a silent TS channel is boring and somewhat demotivating.

    2. Less team co-ordination. It's very difficult to distinguish between "this is what my squad needs to know" and "this is what my team needs to know" -- we end up repeating ourselves a lot. It's often the case that something relevant to us will be useful to all. It's often that asking for something (meds, ammo, repairs, balls) is more relevant to the whole team than the squad because it elicits a faster response.

    3. Less team-wide communication. Our squad notices breakthrough, discusses it, and deals with it. We don't quite contain it, but the discussion we had is lost on the team having to deal with this now: they don't quite know where the threats are.

    4.
    You do not want the enhanced situational awareness the sharing of information should bring negated by the loss of awareness that too much comms can inadvertently cause.
    This is from Ferris's sig, and it's one of the most relevant counter-points to my argument. 16 people speaking about squad-wide issues would get annoying real quick. There just isn't enough comms space to accomodate everything. Even some of the admins are speaking about hanging out in their respective IHS channels because of this issue.
    Obviously, 16 people competing for comms space is contradictory to teamwork.

    There is a benefit to using team-wide comms -- for faster, more organic response, better communication, and more morale. However, squad-wide comms free up the channel's comm space, they allow for joking and sillyness between squad members, and they allow a squad to focus on its own actions.

    I should also say that the BF2142 crowd comes from a fast-paced game where comms over-saturation (even within a squad) was very common. The game is played quickly, and in scrims, for an SL, it wasn't uncommon to hear 3 people at once: an SM, a CO, and another SL, speaking all at once. So I am biased approaching this issue to begin with -- Ferris's comment doesn't apply so much to me. I can take a lot of chatter in the main channel without detriment to my own performance or thought process. Is this the same for everyone? No. Should I tell people to just focus better? No, obviously not.
    I guess I'm trying to guage how bad of a problem this is -- how many people think we really need squad-wide VOIP to make this a more TG game?

    I'm simply raising hell with this thread. I'm not advocating any solutions or sides right now, but I want more teamwork and more TG.

  • #2
    Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

    Nope it's my sig, it's not a quote, well it is a quote from me lol. It stems from my dislike of extraneous, unnecessary comm, i.e. stating the obvious, over elaborate or lengthy reports, comms for comms sake etc. Audio awareness is a huge thing in PR and the advent of MUMBLE has led to a lot of chatty Cathy's believing they are being tactical simply by talking, a lot. End of pointless info transmission.:row__536:


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    • #3
      Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

      Speaking from the point of the non-TG teamspeak user, I do not appreciate whisper lists or squad channels. I don't speak much, but I've never had my situational awareness lessened by people speaking. Usually when I play there are about 8 members in each channel (not all of them actively speaking), which is too few really conflict, and most users are good about cutting the jokes and silliness. When four of them drop out to be in a respective squad channel, the rest lose all sense of communication and greatly suffer, both in deaths and morale. When there are 59 TG's in the server, it can be different, but I can't get in to the server at those times so I wouldn't really know. Even then, BC2 is not like BC2142, with its 6 squads and 7 flags to guard; instead, there is no more than three. Thus, communication more often than not applies to everybody. For example, saying "two at monorail" when your squad is at statue may be irrelevant chatter, but "Squad at Alpha" during rush is relevant to everybody.

      My point is: Try to think of it from a team-first point of view. Private chat may be nice for a squad, but it frankly sucks for those of us without fellow IHSquadmates to turn to.

      That being said, I would love for BC2 to implement the chat function that BC2142 had.

      Edit: Grammar.

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      • #4
        Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

        How about this kind of set up...

        SL's have 2 binds.

        1. This bind talks to everyone in the channel - for use to inform other squads of something. Example Middle Mouse.

        2. This bind only sends to his 3 squad mates. Example Mouse Button 5.

        Squad Members have the same 2 binds, but should only use bind #1 if absolutely necessary.

        With this set up, SL's can still talk to each other to strategics/communicate information, and the whole team does not have to hear when you talk to your squad.
        Skud


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        • #5
          Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

          I'm an avid proponent of the whisper list for squad level comms with a team channel for team level comms and I'll give two examples of why:

          #1- "I'm down, need a revive, 10 seconds" Calling out when you go down has always been a very useful thing to tell your squadmates. Now this can be said in the team channel but this is the type of thing that can do more harm than good as you've just hindered all your teams' medics' situational awareness by having them checking their mini-maps or start looking around on the ground for a body. It's good intel, but the only ones that need to hear it are those you are spawning with and in the immediate vicinity that can give you a revive, namely, your squad. In the event that your entire squad is dead, maybe then it's time to say something in the team channel if you see some blues nearby.

          #2- A squad I was in recently had one member (an admin) in the admin channel and another (a douche....j/k Hoops) in an IHS channel. Why?...who knows? Their reasons are their own, made no difference to me, we're in a squad together and since we are, you're gonna hear the sound of my sweet whisper whether you like it or not unless you get outta TS or mute me.

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          • #6
            Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

            Originally posted by Sleepy8 View Post
            I don't speak much, but I've never had my situational awareness lessened by people speaking.

            Usually when I play there are about 8 members in each channel (not all of them actively speaking), which is too few really conflict, and most users are good about cutting the jokes and silliness. When four of them drop out to be in a respective squad channel, the rest lose all sense of communication and greatly suffer, both in deaths and morale. When there are 59 TG's in the server, it can be different, but I can't get in to the server at those times so I wouldn't really know. Thus, communication more often than not applies to everybody.

            Private chat may be nice for a squad, but it frankly sucks for those of us without fellow IHSquadmates to turn to.
            People who redundantly say "Bradley on the main road" in white pass when its frankly obvious that there is a Bradley there, with it being q-spotted and tagged, can be a waste of comms for those trying to announce important events.

            2nd thing... er 59 people in one server? Typo maybe.




            And the last thing, we are not talking about "private" all-exclusive IHS chat, this is simply for squad style chat like what we had in BF2142. If you remember back to 2142, 99% of the Ts chat was in between rounds about how it went, because people on both teas joined the same TS channel - we still had great comms, probably better then this game simply with squad member to squad member voip and squad leader to commander voip.



            Former TG-21st
            Swift Mobile On Target

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            • #7
              Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

              See if you just use your IHS TS whisper chat list as a tool to communicate to your friends and not vital game information, this becomes a mute point.

              I use the 8th whisper list to communicate all of my frustrated curse laden rants about that the other team has to be hacking (kidding) and just to curse some more and say how much I hate Punchy. My 8th are friends, I don't need to whisper communications to them, I yell them in normal chat :)
              Big-eye101: "A true catman post a day keeps the bad mood away"

              Please do not take any posts made by Catman seriously. If you begin to take his posts seriously, please seek psychiatric attention.

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              • #8
                Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                Originally posted by Darth_Napoleon View Post
                People who redundantly say "Bradley on the main road" in white pass when its frankly obvious that there is a Bradley there, with it being q-spotted and tagged, can be a waste of comms for those trying to announce important events.

                2nd thing... er 59 people in one server? Typo maybe.

                To anyone who can set up binds to match the people who randomly join and leave a squad, I applaud you.



                And the last thing, we are not talking about "private" all-exclusive IHS chat, this is simply for squad style chat like what we had in BF2142. If you remember back to 2142, 99% of the Ts chat was in between rounds about how it went, because people on both teas joined the same TS channel - we still had great comms, probably better then this game simply with squad member to squad member voip and squad leader to commander voip.
                Fair enough, I suppose I did miss the point about whisper lists rather than IHS channels (but please avoid the latter if you can.) If someone can keep the relevant information in main channel and only use the whisper lists for jokes and curses, then I'm all for it.

                Originally posted by Catman1975 View Post
                See if you just use your IHS TS whisper chat list as a tool to communicate to your friends and not vital game information, this becomes a mute point.
                QFT

                I also meant 59 people in the 30v30 BC2 server, not any particular TS server.

                Incidentally, anyone have any news on upcoming patches that may fix this VOIP mess?

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                • #9
                  Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                  From my view squad whispering improves teamwork within the squad considerably and has minimal effect on the team channel if it is being used as originally intended. Squad whispering for me does several things:

                  - Allows me the freedom to say whatever I want to my squad without hesitation that I may be clouding the team coms. There is no feeling of having to censor myself in any way. I can ask what kit it needed before I spawn, I can call for localized support within the squad and I can freely suggest squad level tactics. Also the squad level chit chat that builds community bonds and friendships comes back. All of that chatter is critical to the normal BF squad experience but it has no place in a channel setup for team coms.
                  - I find squad cohesion is much better. There is less of the feeling that your squad is just four guys somewhat moving together toward team oriented goals using each other as spawn points.
                  - Improves my immersion(and morale!) when I don't hear unnecessary chatter coming from the other squads. I shouldn't be hearing 'spawning on you', 'come in support xyz', or 'haha that was epic tgplayer1'. Getting rid of all that lets me hear the game sounds better(footsteps anyone?) and allows me to focus on my squad while retaining the ability to discuss a team wide plan without constant interruption.

                  I haven't played recently but I imagine the status quo hasn't changed too much in the last week or two. Lots of good team communication but a lot of squad chatter is added in that the other squads have no use for. Some of the playerbase can probably process all the excess chatter and may find some of it beneficial. I think that is probably the angle you see things from zho and you touched on it a bit with your 2142 background. If you could hear some key pieces of what the other squads were saying in 2142 you would probably feel it enhanced your situational awareness and thus improved teamwork. Each player has a different level on where things become too 'noisy' and distracting. There are a lot of players that hide down in the IHS channels specifically because there is too much chatter occurring within the team channel or they prioritze squad cohesion over everything else.

                  I would suggest keeping at it - give it some more time. Finding the right balance is the key. Clearly there are things the team needs to hear and a lot only your squad should. Think back to what information you would pass to the CO in past BF games or how you interacted with other squad leaders in a SL channel. Most information is local but certain information should be global.

                  The end result will no doubt be a quieter team channel compared to the current status quo but as long as the necessary global information is still being sent along the end result should be positive.



                  RE #3: Shouldn't this be the approach in that scenario?

                  Team: Enemy is breaking through at X location. My squad is engaging.
                  ....(time passes)...
                  Squad: Discussion of current engagement 1
                  Squad: Discussion of current engagement 2
                  Squad: Discussion of current engagement 3
                  etc
                  ....(time passes)...
                  Team: Enemy breakthrough at X has been eliminated.
                  (or)
                  Team: We need help back here at X location. Quick intel on situation is Y.



                  -------------------------------

                  Skud: That is what this thread is about.:)
                  |TG-12th|mantis

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                  • #10
                    Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                    my thoughts on all this,

                    at the moment we have a functioning comms method of the team is one big squad in one channel

                    we have occasionaly the odd squad doing the whisper thing but when its just them doing it, it grates with the one big squad in one channel

                    the approach of all squads doing whisper and SL-to-SL comms in main channel is a dream that can only really be achieved in a scrim at the moment

                    until in game squad voip is working we have the team is one big squad in one channel, as the dominant mindset

                    when the boat comes in and ingame voip is fixed that the game will be transformed for TG. At this point a lot of TG who have shelved BC2 will come back for a second look

                    on a side note, I reckon we dont know what tactical depths this game has to offer. When voip finally arrives, TG will jump upto the strategic level of SL-SL coordiantion eg squad alpha defending flag charlie, squad echo & hotel attacking flag bravo etc. There is also a higher level still of the leadership, this is on teamspeak between the SLs and its not so much about strategy but the will to win, its the person who says the positve thing at the right moment and believes what they say to turn the mindset of the SLs, also its flowing with different people being the leader at different points in the game. Anyway, this is a dynamic I wish to investigate, when DICE finally fix voip

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                    • #11
                      Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                      Originally posted by FBmantis View Post

                      Skud: That is what this thread is about.:)
                      How can it possibly be detrimental to the team? I fail to see...
                      Skud


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                      • #12
                        Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                        From Sunday's scrim, most Conquest tactics relied on flooding an area with people. I'm somewhat ashamed to even call them tactics: each conquest map has 3 flags, so it's a little bit silly to even call tactics something a person who's never played the game can figure out.

                        In an environment that relies on flooding an area with players and the ability to spawn on virtually anyone, what use is squad VOIP?

                        Seems like a defeatist and negative train of thought, but it's worth throwing out if we're aiming to be candid about this game. I played a bit of BF2 last night, and even among the 70 million frags on Karkland, I had a ton of fun.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Candid question to IHSs: do squad-wide whisper lists improve or detriment teamwor

                          Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                          From Sunday's scrim, most Conquest tactics relied on flooding an area with people. I'm somewhat ashamed to even call them tactics: each conquest map has 3 flags, so it's a little bit silly to even call tactics something a person who's never played the game can figure out.

                          In an environment that relies on flooding an area with players and the ability to spawn on virtually anyone, what use is squad VOIP?

                          Seems like a defeatist and negative train of thought, but it's worth throwing out if we're aiming to be candid about this game. I played a bit of BF2 last night, and even among the 70 million frags on Karkland, I had a ton of fun.
                          I see limited use in whisper lists as well, but I do see some benefit. In the Laguna Alta rounds, there was a lot of mass rushing by the Bravo team. While successful, it led to a capture the flag merry go round between flags B and C. Zzippy, mike000, and myself (alpha squad) finally decided to sit back and hold B while the rest of the team advanced on C. Fortunately, we had the "comm space" to communicate this clearly, but I think that's a situation where whisper lists (or in-game VoIP) would have been pretty useful. Not only could we effectively say "hey Alpha squad stay and defend B" (although we can say this over the team channel also), we could do a better job of coordinating about B defense, without confusing those attacking C.

                          In short, I find whisper lists more of a "good to have in case the scenario calls for it" type of tool. It may not come up often, but once a squad gets pretty organized and sticks together to achieve a specific objective (e.g. that single squad, by themselves, is defending a flag or attacking an MCOM) it's pretty handy to have a clear channel to communicate local activities.

                          The only setback is that unless it's a scrim, squadmates change often, and as such, the whisper lists have to adjust accordingly. Is there a way to adjust whisper lists on the fly through key bindings?


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