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An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

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  • An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

    I have to admit that I have been pretty riled up as of late and that I have been pushing the envelope of acceptable posting etiquette. I would like to apologize to my peers for not being the ideal spokesman for the Twitch crowd. I would also like to apologize to the "Simulation/Realism" crowd for my confrontational posts. And, most importantly, I would like to apologize to the entire TG community for my immature and confrontational posts. It was never my intention to offend anyone and I am truly sorry that I did.

    Some may see the following as my excuse for my behavior but, I would like to explain my position and concerns. In doing so, I am hoping to reach out and find a way for us all to compromise. I feel that it is important for us Tactical Gamers to stick together in this world of l33t speak and bunnyhopping of kill hunting and lone wolfing. So, please bear with me as I try to get my thoughts out in as coherent a manner as possible.

    I am very passionate about Tactical Gamer and its core values and principles (regardless of what others may think) and I do not want to see this great community stagnate and die. I say that in reference to what happened with Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and what may be happening to Black Ops. Bear in mind that I was not here for the start of CoD4 (my first Cod game and my introduction to TG) at TG. But, reading through some of the old CoD 4 threads, I was saddened to see so many promising tactical players ideas shot down by those that wanted a slower paced "more tactical" experience. I wish I could have gotten to know some of those players, but they don't seem to be around anymore. It seems that after the game was "made tactical", it died off. Slowly at first, then the player base left en mass towards the end. My question is this: Why? Why, after all of the forum posts, after all of the discussions and ideas on how to make the game more tactical, no-one wanted to play it? Not even those that had requested the "slow it down and make it more realistic" changes. It seems that those players had moved back to the true simulation games such as ArmA, GRAW, PR and POE.

    Skip forward to early 2010. The CoD 4 servers are dead. Just sitting there empty and taking up space. Attempts were made to get games going on the heavily modded server to no avail. A few people would show up but, they would not stay for long. Then, Drona had the idea of reverting the mod settings to almost a stock configuration and we had a few small games of S&D, but not much of a showing. Finally, Drona suggested we switch to a mixed mode line-up with the close-to-stock settings and the server took off. Now, every Tuesday and Friday since August 2010 has seen an almost full TG CoD server with most of the players being TG tagged.

    I don't see much need to get into our brief affair with World at War and the well written SOG mod, except this: The SOG mod attempted to mitigate the run-n-gun of the stock game and make it more tactical. The resulting discussions neatly killed off the title at TG as the players were not interested in slower play.

    With all of that in mind, consider my posts concerning Black Ops, my defense of mixed mode game play and my vehement, almost rabid, desire to not have the game gutted and rebuilt into something else. As I stated earlier, since August of this year we have been playing CoD 4 as the twitch shooter that it was designed to be (with a few SMALL changes) and we have been applying tactics and communication to great effect. Are the tactics and communication the same as it was in the old days? No. But, that is not to say that they don't exist or, that they do not promote the TG ideals, they are just different. In my opinion, no better, no worse.

    Now, on to Black Ops and the growing pains it is currently going through. Lets take a look at the two TG BO servers. Both are in hardcore mode with one set up for mixed mode and the other as S&D only. Of course, they are both stock, seeing as we have no mod tools as of yet. Looking at the player traffic, one sees that the mixed mode server is the one with players on it consistently, while the S&D server sits empty almost all of the time. Am I the only one here that is seeing this pattern? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand every ones opinion and position concerning the direction that the Black Ops servers should go. Do we dare forget history and be doomed to repeat it? Will we, as Tactical Gamer members be ok with potentially killing off another CoD game and looking at our empty servers?

    The constant struggle between those that like their games slowed down and those that prefer a faster paced experience tends to cause problems because of the name calling and labeling of members as un-TG or "not being focused on the Primer". This type of behavior, in my opinion, is what's un-Tg and goes against principles 1 and 2 of the Primer. Allow me to list these two principles, which to me, are more important than the oft quoted 3rd principle:

    1) Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

    2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.
    There must be a way that we can all compromise. We are a community of mature gamers that are passionate about tactics, communication and objective based game play. There must be some sort of common ground that we can agree upon. My plea to the community is this: Can we find that common ground? Can we get past the Simulation vs Twitch mentality, surpass it and just become Tactical Gamers? Please tell me this isn't a pipe dream.

    Perhaps the current trend of having two servers per title with one set up as "low and slow" and the other closer to stock configuration for the "twitch" members is the answer. Perhaps not.

    p.s. This dissertation is my own (some may say warped) opinion and is not intended to offend or cause problems. My intent is to reach across the divide that separates us and bring us together under the Tactical Gamer banner: to continue the proud tradition of Tactical Gamer as "The PREMIERE mature online gaming community".

    Thank you for taking the time to read this and thank you in advance for your considered and thoughtful responses.

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  • #2
    Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

    Allow me to list these two principles, which to me, are more important than the oft quoted 3rd principle:

    1) Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

    2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

    + rep if I could give you more
    "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

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    • #3
      Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

      Can I ask this question....how does one value a digital life when there is no penalty for being killed when you just respawn mili seconds later and do the same thing over again?

      When in the day of CoD4, ya the most dreaded "low-slow" game type that everyone seems to hate now, forced people to think and then punish them for thinking badly?

      You make great points, and you should not have to apologize, as your posts, maybe say for one paragraph, has been no different than mine.....for that there is noting to apologize for :)

      But I thought the point of TG was to make it (the game title) into a "near simulated" environment, which again, IMO, has not been happening with the last couple of games we as the TG community has adapted because either it's just too tuff to get across to the new folks that have joined from the public servers or the servers will not allow us to do it do to no mods....Is it not the people that make TG, and thus the people who a responsible for upholding ALL of the Primer and standards.

      I remember back when I was a TGU instructor for CSS and it was MANDATORY for the first 15 minutes or the first topic that is covered, be it any topic that is being taught, to go over the roomer and the player standards....for me, that is why I am making the posts that I am doing.....I have seen and heard those precious things not being upheld.

      I understand that people do not want to play slow...but did we still not use a rush tactic from time to time to throw the OpFOR off? Now that rush tactic is the norm, not the occasion.

      I love this thread and the other one as well, for me, it is bringing a topic that really needs to be talked about by all!! Great post MK!!






      "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

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      • #4
        Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

        But I thought the point of TG was to make it (the game title) into a "near simulated" environment, which again, IMO, has not been happening

        I do agree with this....but it should also not be the ONLY intent. If we adhere strictly to what is quoted above, it is my feeling that in doing so with this particular title/series than we stand a very good chance of loosing this:
        1) Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

        2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.
        So what is the solution? Both sides have valid reasoning and argument, however I have to assume that when we looked at adopting the COD series we did know what type of game it was.....was the intent from day one to slow the game down? or was the intent to take a faster "twitch" style game and implement our beliefs into the series to make an already solid game series better?
        "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

          Jack, in the end, the only opinion concerning the Primer that counts is that of Apophis. I know that we all respect and admire him for setting up this awesome community that brings tactical gamers together from all over the world. He also had the presence of mind to give us the Primer as a guiding light, so that we may know what is expected of us as Tactical Gamers. I may be way off on this, and if I am please forgive me Apophis, but I think he has already made his stance clear (to me, actions always speak louder than words). As far as I know, Apophis is responsible for renting all of the game servers that TG uses. If that is the case, then according to your stance, Apophis has broken your interpretation of the 3rd principle of his Primer, seeing as he has rented us BF2, 2142, BC2, and other game servers that allow respawns. So, your argument would be better served by going directly to the source.

          But, be that as it may, my intent with this thread was not to debate who's interpretation of the Primer is correct. As I stated in my post script, "My intent is to reach across the divide that separates us and bring us together under the Tactical Gamer banner: to continue the proud tradition of Tactical Gamer as "The PREMIERE mature online gaming community."

          sigpic


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          • #6
            Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

            Well, Jack I value the play time I get. In the low and slow game I was shoot early, sat and watched the others play for six minutes and then was allowed to play the start of the round and die, watch others play for six minutes and repeat. So my gaming time consisted of spectator mode..Wow that is fun….We have many tactical rounds here at TG, respawning dose not destroy tactical rounds. Yes I value my “digital life” even though I respawn.

            “When in the day of CoD4, ya the most dreaded "low-slow" game type that everyone seems to hate now, forced people to think and then punish them for thinking badly?”

            This also punished those who just started, those who are not “twitchy”. This style of play benefitted the more experienced, who picked off the newer and slower players in the first minutes of the round, which made mistakes, errors. Respawning levels the playing field…respawning makes you think, move and react..

            I play GRAW II and there is respawing there, and that is probably the MOST "low-slow" and tactical game I know. Bad Company also allows respawing, great tactical rounds there also, great comms, movement…all tactical…


            No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
            George S. Patton

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            • #7
              Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

              *sigh*

              Although I am grateful for the responses so far, it still is not my intent to debate our views of the Primer. As I stated in post #5, I believe that since we have game servers allowing respawns, paid for by Apophis, the whole debate is moot. Whether for good or bad, respawns are here to stay.

              I guess I could have just come out and said it in the original post, but I thought it would be rude and immature to just blurt it out. The compromise that I am looking for, and that I think would greatly benefit the TG community is this: What can we do to get the fans of the "low and slow" play style to stop looking down their noses at the twitch players? To bring an end to the twitch players being made to feel like they are not a part of this community. And to stop the constant stream of posts that generally tell the twitch players to "go read the Primer". I have read the Primer, as everyone who wears the vaunted [TG] tags has, and I have found no passage, idea or principle that states "Players of games with respawns are inferior" or "Players that enjoy fast paced games should be looked down upon".

              It is agreed that we all have our own personalities, opinions, likes and dislikes. But, we should all be united as Tactical Gamers. We are the cream of the crop when it comes to objective based game play... Not just the "low and slow" players.. ALL of us. Which is why I made the suggestion in my original post, of: "...having two servers per title with one set up as "low and slow" and the other closer to stock configuration for the "twitch" members...".

              Again, I'm not trying to cause a huge uproar or hurt anyones feelings. What I want, is what we should all want... Mutual Respect.

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              • #8
                Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                Red,

                You know I was in the same boat as you wh en I first started to play here, but what I did as I was dead was observe...observe....observe, then I asked question, questions questions, then I posted the same questions I was asking people on the forums, I eventually found my niche as a "Tactical Gamer" here in all of the severs hosted by TG.

                It is no misnomer that I equiviate the twitch gaming that is going on with CAL and league play....do I look down upon those who play that way, NO NOT AT ALL!! What I am taking up arms over is why should the game dictate our rules? Should not the rules be dictated to the game, and by rules, I mean the Primer?

                Do not the tactics of one game flow over to the next? I use the same tactics that I used in CSS, which WAY more of a twitch game an CoD, in Arma, PR, CoD, BC2, and even the ocassiional gaming I do in EVE. The problem is that the tactics that are being used in the games now, is not why this community was formed..again in my opinion. Rush Rush Rush, with no consideration of team. People are putting kills and themselves before the team. Red brings up a good point about being a lame duck easy target. What he doesn't realize is, yes he may be dead, which he should be learning from by observation, but what he doest realize is by sometimes being shot and killed he, by default has let others in on valuable information as a result. When i was constantly dieting sooner than he was in CSS and in CoD, i made sure then to put a more experience, sharper shot at point, so then when he dies like i used to, i can then use that information to relay to others and I can then stand up and become the leader.


                Why do you feel bad bringing up a topic that needs clarification and discussion? Why is it also that there has only been four people that has commented in this as well? I believe everyone should be commenting, as it is their server just as it is Apo's...

                You speak of respect....I try and preach MRC- Manners, Respect, and Cooperation, which has really been lacking ALL OVER TG, which is a direct shout out to everyone, as everyone is the problem, not just the twitchers...I have never been this far into a thad where people have not been flames nor harrased...this is a fantastic discussion as people ( the few that have posted) are putting down in words what they feel and how the interpret their home they call TG!






                "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                  Again on a second note, and I know everyone is sick of me bringing up CSS and comparing it, but hey it's TG's roots....

                  They had a debate like this and finally only went with one server with major tweaks that made it into TG..I really think that is something that needs to be looked at not just in the title but the BC2 servers as well.






                  "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                    Originally posted by Jack Bauer View Post
                    ...snip... What I am taking up arms over is why should the game dictate our rules? Should not the rules be dictated to the game, and by rules, I mean the Primer?
                    This is exactly what I am talking about.

                    Originally posted by Jack Bauer View Post
                    ...snip... The problem is that the tactics that are being used in the games now, is not why this community was formed..again in my opinion. Rush Rush Rush, with no consideration of team. People are putting kills and themselves before the team.
                    How can you say that when you haven't even played Black Ops yet? Generally, the game play is a far cry from your depiction of it. When we have a good amount of TG members playing, the tactics and comms are amazing. Perhaps you are hearing tales of when there are just a few members on (with no admin present) and the server is full of guest players. Or, late at night when most members are playing their final round and just want to blow off some steam. I will freely admit that there are times when the in-game comms are mostly quiet but, thats because everyone knows their job and are doing it. And, yes, the main tactic is rush. That is kind of the whole premise of twitch gaming.

                    What you got wrong is the part about "no consideration of team" and "putting kills and themselves before the team". I have seen very little of that type of behavior from TG tagged players. I say very little because, of course it happens occasionally but, it is far from the norm.

                    ***edit***

                    In response to your most recent post that you got in, before this post. Please don't take this the wrong way Jack. You know I have much respect for you as a fellow TG member. But, I am glad that you are not the one making the decisions around here.

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                    • #11
                      Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                      Fair enough






                      "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                        Well, Jack this will be my last post on the topic, I see this now as whipping a dead horse. You state

                        “MRC- Manners, Respect, and Cooperation, which has really been lacking ALL OVER TG”

                        I don’t know where you have been playing, but where I play these live. Cooperation thrives in CTF matches (all of them most of the time); sometime muddled by non-Tg’ers, Respect heck we got that to. I even respect Mindkills point of view (sometimes). So to paint with such a broad brush is a crime.

                        And to your point of
                        “What he doesn't realize is, yes he may be dead, which he should be learning from by observation”

                        I have a short time allotted to play games, I have a real life, family, kids, wife and work also school..the LAST thing I want to do with what time I have is to sit and watch, I want to PLAY. Learning from by observation I get paid for, not something I want to do in my spare time. You state that (I) “he should be learning from by observation” no I should be playing the game, learning from interaction, in an “environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers” filled with “mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby” that some time includes low and slow, and run-in-gun


                        No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
                        George S. Patton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                          The problem is that the tactics that are being used in the games now, is not why this community was formed..again in my opinion. Rush Rush Rush, with no consideration of team. People are putting kills and themselves before the team.

                          The only ones doing this are non TG....and over the last week it is evident that we are getting "regular" non TG folks who are starting to talk, listen, and take initiative. We are starting to get our core group of "pubbies" that like our style and like what TG offers. I can't help but think that what I am seeing is what TG stands for. It won't be long and our server will consist of TG people and those who like the TG rules and respect it, it may take a bit.....but before all the modding of MW we had that as well. the game is brand new and I am encouraged by what I see.
                          "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                            If you see a person not following TG conduct then report it to the admins. If you see an admin not doing his job or following TG conduct, you should report this to one of the higher ups. It's a pretty simple process. And to elaborate on what Ven said, I'm seeing the same thing and I play an hour or two almost every night. We need to give this game some time and let it evolve. And when I say "evolve", I mean let it be broken in. Not change every setting until it's not the same game anymore.


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                            • #15
                              Re: An Apology, an Explanation, and a Plea

                              Great thread. What Size said, BTW.




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