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  • Hostage Killing

    I am completely against intentional hostage killing. There are several times when players put themselves in positions where a hostage gets shot in a snap decision while the enemy is giving and receiving fire, or where the hostage has already taken damage from other shots and is on the absolute minimal hit points. The objective, of course, is to keep the hostage alive. However, I don't believe killing a hostage should be an immediate and kick-able offense. This of course doesn't cover intentional killing of hostages by terrorists that makes the game into a DM. I understand why there is a need for punishment, but I would like these options considered or weighed against the current system:

    Taking a player out of the action immediately, for the smallest of mistakes, really devastates one teams ability to meet the other team. With Source hit boxes and spray patterns as strange as they are, I really don't think its fair to punish a player or team so drastically for making such a mistake. What I suggest is this: If the player kills the hostage, instead of causing that player to be kicked from the game immediately, the following round he is either punished by death (automatic) or by kick (automatic). This removes drastic situational imbalance (in my eyes) during the round of the incident.

    Another approach is this: change the punishment for when the hostages are "used" by the CT. If the hostage is being escorted to the evac point by a CT, the CT is the main target but the Terrorist shouldn't be punished for spray that will hurt the hostages. Matter of fact, it is this players belief that the CT is now solely responsible (and not the T) for the well being of those hostages. So the current punishment system stays in place, but is lifted after the hostage has been escorted("used") by a CT.

    Thoughts? I know several players, myself included, are irritated over the current system. Beliefs like "aim" or "pick your targets" for accidental or unavoidable shots (note: completely unintentional when the player is supposedly aiming at his intended target) hitting hostages are extremely poor. Yes, we play for the most realism and at no point should we be shooting hostages; however, the game play is effected to much with the current system.
    USAR

  • #2
    Re: Hostage Killing

    You bring up some interesting points, however if I were to kill a hostage It'd rather miss that round of action (a partial round) over a whole round of action. Losing a teammate half-way through a round isn't nearly as devastating as losing him/her for the whole round.

    Opinions?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Hostage Killing

      I'm not sure if there's a way to do this, but maybe the damage someone does to a hostage could be dealt or multiplied to the shooter instead? The only problem is when there's a firefight involving the hostages, they're usually always hit. Sometimes not enough to kill them, but the small amount of damage that could be given may lose the round for either side if this mirrored damage was made.
      Then again this does seem TG-ish to me, making everyone be even MORE careful around the hostages, but people make mistakes every once in awhile.
      Another way could be to have an admin watching and take some health off of the hostage killer in the current or next round.

      Just some ideas

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hostage Killing

        I feel that punishing a player for ignorance or lack of skill goes against the general TG spirit. These players should be educated, or given slack, not punished.

        Of course, players that intentionally kill hosties won't last long around here.. no, not long @ all..


        "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

        "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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        • #5
          Re: Hostage Killing

          Originally posted by aesop rock
          I feel that punishing a player for ignorance or lack of skill goes against the general TG spirit.
          Actually, it does not. We have a long history of not suffereing fools that cannot take the time to read the rules, or execute their gaming actions within the SOPs.

          Read the Primer. We operate servers in a near simulation environment: PCS is a cornerstone of that. Shooting hostages is unacceptable: those are your objective.

          I don't buy the "training" or "education" arguments either. I have seen very few newcomers in the last week, so all the players should be aware of our rules (assuming they have taken the time to read them), and be putting them into practice.

          I put hostage killing in the same category as TKing: it's laziness on the part of a player, and a signal that that player needs closer observation to determine whether they should be on the server at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hostage Killing

            Unfortunately I have been kicked several times for killing hostages, almost always on Havana while chasing the CT's.

            I can say that it definitely sucks to get kicked for it, but it is almost always my own fault for either:

            a) playing sloppy
            b) not being close enough to the hostages

            When I get back in I definitely play more conservatively and try to stay closer to the hostages and the problem is solved.

            The only issue I really have with the current system is the ability for the CT's to kill hostages and win, seems backwards to me.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Hostage Killing

              Hostage killing, heck TKing in general is more of an accident than "he did it on purpose." Nobody ever goes into a round intending to kill hostages without doing so right off the bat. Given the cost of taking a hostage out (economically) and the fact that the server is most definately going to kick you (for that round), there really is little intention.

              However that brings us to the point where Terrorists use hostages as shields by hiding next to them, standing next to them, or using their hitbox as a means of blocking bullets while having a clear shot at an entry point. (Of course in real situations different ammo is used for hostage rescue in order to prevent operatives from accidently shooting and hitting a hostage while shooting at terrorists, etc). Accordingly enough Terrorists are supposed to value hostages (hence no killing them at the start) as much as CT's as a means of bargaining, and therefore should not be using them as shields theoretically. However everyday, especially in the map italy_reloaded (a map where all hostages are on a second floor building with 2 entrances leading to a medium sized room camped with the entire T team vs the CT team). This obviously leads to a great deal of hostage wounding, blindfire, and other whatnot rules being broken.

              In anycase, as for TKing/Hostage killing in general, I would like to see the rules relaxed more. For example, one helpful rule was to not throw a grenade out ahead of your teammates since that increases the chance of TKing. Given that I saw an example of where the person ahead (on pirasani or whatever that map is with the castle roof) saw terrorists rushing from the roof (being on the CT side) and threw a frag so that it would explode towards the CT side of the roof top either damaging Ts or stopping their rush. However some teammate also witnessing the barrage of coverfire from the rooftop rushes past the CT who threw the grenade thus recieving fragmentation to the face and dying (after witnessing the grenade being tossed). You have to wonder, is that really the fault of the CT who threw the grenade first or the fault of the CT behind him who witnessed the action and decided to rush out there anyways.

              Another example, a CT teammate is down to 4hp after being hit multiple times across de_nuke courtyard from the far warehouse looking towards the outside entrypath of the Ts. He then runs behind some of the freight boxes, into that particular corner (between the far warehouse where you can cover the outside pathway, and the bomb warehouse exterior entrance). Needless to say the Terrorists charging from the outside reach the far warehouse, in which another CT was hiding behind (the backway entrance to bombsite B). As the terrorists walked out of the warehouse to reach that backway entrance he shot and killed 2 terrorists, however his bullets passed through their bodies, the wall behind it, and also into the poor 4hp CT who was hiding in that corner between the freight box and the warehouse. It is virtually impossible to tell exactly where the 4hp CT was hiding in that corner area but he died in the heat of the fight, and the teammate was promptly kicked from server.

              Giving that the people playing on the CS:S server, who follow PCS guidelines are usually very informative about where people are, sometimes doing hp checks, etc, its not at a level where every teammate will know their exact locations (ie behind a line of fire, or cross fire) so that they can avoid shooting in that direction. Specifically that CT did not know his teammate was there in the 8 seconds or so that everything went down (starting with his teammate losing hp till 4%).

              While TKing can be intentional, maybe the server can be setup so that it deals with TKing by damage dealt (ie 100hp damage = kick from that round), or by kills per round, or kills total during map? The majority of tking I can see is all accidental, and really, you MUST assume its accidental, and that kicking/banning for just one TK is overkill even if you really do feel that creating a simulation enviroment is the most necessary thing. For one thing, you cant say sorry once your kicked (even though you could when you come back, but the message that kick sends says otherwise).

              Mateo says Tking is from laziness. Now the server is setup to deal with Tking from a non-biased point (ie. tkers get kicked once the server determines they have had enough). But whos laziness is it from? Is it from the CT who was low on HP and put himself in the line of fire? Is he supposed to communicate? Is it the CT teammate supposed to ask him how much his hp is at and where he is at before opening fire on advancing terrorists in the 5 seconds before combat? Is it the CT's fault for not knowing his teammate is willingly going to run into that grenade, or what if the grenade bounced off at a bad angle or hit an object. Sure its the thrower's fault for not being able to throw a grenade well, but is it intentional? What consitutes laziness, its your opinion obviously. And like almost all players, nobody really knows just how exactly did the situtation happen unless they observed the entire event as it unfolds (which is difficult do, but doable only if you are right there when it happens).

              There is a point where the game's tactical play reaches a limit. As all these situations no team is ever sent in so hap hazardly to save hostages or protect/defuse a bomb in the fashion CS:S plays it out.

              As for hostages who are in route to being rescued, it is always the most difficult task of picking off a CT who is escaping as the hostages will obscure line of fire. However its easily enough said that if the CTs reach the hostages then you have already lost the position to argue.

              As for cutting people slack as Aesop says, I agree. Why? Those who have been long time players, are given some reputation in which they can say wholeheartedly that it was an accident and be forgiven instead of kicked. You might say otherwise Mateo but I am sure you know that because of status people are given more room to breathe. Do you honestly believe that in a PCS night, not one TK will ever happen for the rest of the time? Will you kick him because he tked? Will that kick matter, will it help or hurt the team, will it change anything when you do it? This is a game afterall no matter how seriously you wish it to be real life. There are certain limits to the psychological decision people will make when considering whether that grenade is a good thing to use or a bad thing to use because its a game. They might go as far as to consider the fact that the grenade deals very little damage unless it lands exclusively on target and therefore throw it even though the teammate out there will take 10-20 damage after accounting for their hp. These are things you cannot determine and cannot assume. Therefore dealing with matters such as Tking, especially when they are almost never intentional, by strictly enforcing the rules should be relaxed. This is why your shots dont deal the same amount of damage if your hitting an enemy. Friendly fire built into the game already tries to deal with this sort of thing. However not everyone enjoys 100hp all the time, so even that cannot be used as an excuse out of "laziness." I've seen PCS members rush around, ramboing, doing all sorts of things that are counter to the guidelines but its "excusable". Everyone has their bad days, or maybe they dont like the map. Sure it really isnt a good example to the rest of the players but THEY can understand it, so I know you can too.

              Having admin powers doesn't mean you should use them whenever possible. Those powers are for use when only necessary, and there are far greater things to worry about than accidental tks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hostage Killing

                Originally posted by Avs
                Having admin powers doesn't mean you should use them whenever possible. Those powers are for use when only necessary, and there are far greater things to worry about than accidental tks.
                With that being said, you have to realize that every admin has his own way of doing things. Where one admin might kick, another might slay, or warn. It really doesn't help to "poke the old stick in the beehive," it's their right to admin however they see fit. Now I wasn't on the night in question (and from reading your post, I can ascertain that some of it belonged in a private message, not a forum post) but I see no problem of how it was handled. I reiterate that every admin has their own basis for judgement.

                For further evidence, play with Root. :row__523:



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Hostage Killing

                  Originally posted by whistler's mother
                  With that being said, you have to realize that every admin has his own way of doing things. Where one admin might kick, another might slay, or warn. It really doesn't help to "poke the old stick in the beehive," it's their right to admin however they see fit. Now I wasn't on the night in question (and from reading your post, I can ascertain that some of it belonged in a private message, not a forum post) but I see no problem of how it was handled. I reiterate that every admin has their own basis for judgement.

                  For further evidence, play with Root. :row__523:
                  LOL Sounds like the Spiderman movie....

                  "With Great power comes Great responsibility."

                  Oh the life of an admin...

                  The Autokicks usualy happen as a surprise..there has been one or two times where I swear my site was on the CT head and BAM...next thing you know I am logging back into Server 1 (Since I can not as of yet log into Server 2 :madsmile: )

                  Sometimes it is me being sloppy the other times the hostage jumps in the way...Sure kick someone that continually is shooting the hosties but auto kick seems a little rough...



                  Play MySpace games? PeepsDepot.com to get all the Peeps you need for any game!

                  Wii# 5935-7920-5346-8754 | PS3:TheeShadyB | XBOX 360:TheeShadyB

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hostage Killing

                    Originally posted by Quest Shady

                    "With Great power comes Great responsibility."

                    Oh the life of an admin...
                    what does admin abuse (root) have anything to do with responsibility? :)


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hostage Killing

                      Just a reminder, I am not against punishment for this offence, I would just love to see changes to how that punishment is dealt.
                      USAR

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hostage Killing

                        I agree with squeak here. The problem is that the sudden loss of the HKer in the end-game of the round (which is when accidental TKs and hostage kills usually occur and intentional ones usually don't) can be a horrible surprise for the HKer's team and put them at a sudden disadvantage. The solution could be as simple as "After the first 15 seconds of the round, HKers will be slayed at the beginning of the next round. Repeat offenders will be delt with by admins." We have page_admin for dealing with problem players when admins are in-game. If we'll use it when needed, we can let admins make judgements instead of automated systems. As for TKing, I like the present system.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Hostage Killing

                          Originally posted by TG_Mateo
                          Actually, it does not. We have a long history of not suffereing fools that cannot take the time to read the rules, or execute their gaming actions within the SOPs.

                          Read the Primer. We operate servers in a near simulation environment: PCS is a cornerstone of that. Shooting hostages is unacceptable: those are your objective.

                          I don't buy the "training" or "education" arguments either. I have seen very few newcomers in the last week, so all the players should be aware of our rules (assuming they have taken the time to read them), and be putting them into practice.

                          I put hostage killing in the same category as TKing: it's laziness on the part of a player, and a signal that that player needs closer observation to determine whether they should be on the server at all.
                          I wasn't suggesting that killing hostages intentionally wasn't an obvious kick. I was merely stating my opinion that a community such as this does well at teaching those who don't understand (truly), and is patient with those who try to do right, but simply fail out of lack of skill.

                          My suggestion is simple: I think if a person accidently kills another person, they should apologize. If someone accidently kills you, and apologizes, accept it and move on.

                          It's a tactical game, and it should be played according to the TG primer, but it's still a game. I don't see any reason to punish someone just cuz they messed up.

                          Also, you may not realize it because of your level of experience, but for those with less CS:S experience, it is extremely difficult to tell the CT and T models apart on the PCS server. It's not laziness, it's just poor pattern recognition.


                          "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                          "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hostage Killing

                            Aesop, your solution predisposes that players are acting maturely.

                            The night in question, I joined, and the T's where shooting each other for trespasses the round prior to my joining. Very mature.

                            During the round, I saw 5 instances of players shooting players on their team simply because they could not be bothered to look at their radar, communicate, or check the skin, resulting in one TK per team.

                            I'm willing to accept that "stuff happens", but only if it is the rare occassion. Five or six instances of same team violence in a single round says to me that players are being lazy, and not playing PCS.

                            The same for shooting hostages. I'm not going to go into the reasons why you do not do it, or why the autokick is there. Those are covered elsewhere.

                            Both your post and Avs post are full of cogent reasons why we should be more relaxed in admining the server, largely based on respecting players, and taking time to eductate them. I'm more than willing to give players lots of leeway, if they show that they are trying to learn, and are respecting the players on their team. In fact, I'm probably one of the more lenient admins around, only because I take the educator role seriously.

                            If I see a player shooting teammates or hostages each round, I have to ask myself if they are respecting the server's rules, and respecting their teammates, two fundamental requirements for playing any game at Tactical Gamer.

                            In the end, my job here is simple: educate players that can be educated, and remove players that ruin the game for those who want to play PCS. If you cannot respect the rules of the server, and the players on it, then I cannot help you other than to invite you to play elsewhere.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Hostage Killing

                              Originally posted by Squeak
                              Another approach is this: change the punishment for when the hostages are "used" by the CT. If the hostage is being escorted to the evac point by a CT, the CT is the main target but the Terrorist shouldn't be punished for spray that will hurt the hostages.
                              Originally posted by Pla`/er
                              I'm not sure if there's a way to do this, but maybe the damage someone does to a hostage could be dealt or multiplied to the shooter instead?
                              To the best of my knowledge, these are all impossible to implement in CS.

                              I'm impressed with the thought that's gone into a lot of the posts in this thread. The majority of it is the type of discussion that should come as standard at TG.

                              As with all things PCS, we have to have more restrictions on server 1 than on server 2. It's not always easy to balance the needs of PCS players against protecting them from random pubbies.

                              To the best of my knowledge, we either have to have HK punisment off, or we have to have it set to kick after x kills. I'm not prepared to turn it off, so that leaves me with deciding the value of x.
                              BFCL TF2 league admin

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