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  • Tactical Stand-points and You.

    I don't mean to complain, although I'd like to.

    I had an incident occur recently that kind've bothered me, but I'm not posting because of that. This was just spawned from the incident.

    I've noticed recently that there is a LOT of voice chatter. This hurts my game-play, as well as others.

    Before I played on TG, I ALWAYS had my voice comms off. I would own the map alone, or be owned alone. I could hear better, and pay more attention to the game.

    I, honestly, don't see a SWAT team saying, "I HAVE AN ENEMY AT B WHO HAS AN AK-47 AND IS SHOOTING AT ME THROUGH THE WALL AND I NEED BACKUP NOWWWWWW!!!!11one"

    If you all will notice, Root has a bind that says, "Cut the chatter red 2."

    I've never understood the "Red 2" part, but the cut the chatter makes sense. I have to turn my volume down to hear a lot of the voice comms without getting a head ache. By turning my volume down, I hear less footsteps. By hearing less footsteps, I am less secure in my position. This defeats the purpose of tactics and puts me and my team in a predicament. We have a hole open at a site because I can't hear anything.

    I think that we should all think before we speak. Say to yourself, "Is what I'm going to say too much?" "Am I going to bother someone's gameplay if I say <enter speech here>?"

    Just food for thought.

    Another thing. Root has a good point in game when he puts the bomber in charge of the team. This sometimes throws the game off because of pubbies, but who cares? All CS gamers know where A and B are, and know how to say it.

    Now that members have admin rights, I think we should incorporate this into our games. Make the bomber tell us what site to go to.

    I'm not saying we should limit ideas, but only make them ideas. Don't take control of your team if you don't have the bomb. This makes for more team-play and less redundancy.

    Keep throwing ideas out, as the bomber might not be sure where he wants to go. It will never hurt to throw ideas, but it will if you decide you want to be team captain when we're playing regular CSS.

    Make it a rule of thumb to hit tab at the beginning of every round to see who has the bomb. We have 20 seconds or so, make them tell you a site.

    Again, just food for thought.

    -Mom
    Yer Mom /O>

    To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

  • #2
    Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

    Originally posted by Yer Mom
    I, honestly, don't see a SWAT team saying, "I HAVE AN ENEMY AT B WHO HAS AN AK-47 AND IS SHOOTING AT ME THROUGH THE WALL AND I NEED BACKUP NOWWWWWW!!!!"
    Never been on a SWAT team, have you...
    Become a supporting member!
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    • #3
      Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

      I have a cousin who was a navy seal. We talk about chain of communication all the time. It's very similar with any squad type combat. the squad leaders communicate with the commander and only necessary information is passed. The squad leaders do not usually speak unless spoken too and the others in the squad do not communicate with the commander. simple chain of communication not very hard to understand. I think more of this needs to implemented on TG servers for the purpose of tactical play IMO.


      - -

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      • #4
        Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

        Well, as I am out of town on business and cant play CS, I can at least browse the forums.

        Mom hit the nail on the head. FAR too much chatter as of late...I know Nightfire hates me, because I will swap teams the instant I see him log in. Nothing against the guy other than he cant keep quiet.

        Most people that run with me on teams, know that I dont talk a whole lot in voice chat. For the simple reason, I want to be able to hear. I use the in game voice commands (Roger That, Negative, etc) to respond to players that are asking questions. To me, its quick and neat, and doesnt contribute to the voice chatter.

        Additionally, when I am the hot potato (bomb carrier) I ask for intel from trusted players on my team...more times than not, it is overshadowed by someone yelling or talking about binds. Hell, I have had Root get perturbed with me cause I will call a target change in the middle of an assault, and because of all the BSing back and forth on voice, only me and another person will hear it and the team will get split.

        Cant say I see a solution that could be "implemented" other than everyone learning that it isnt always the best thing to be talking during game play. Wait until you are dead...the only time you should be talking on voice (IMHO) is if you have game shaping intelligence about the enemy, or you are the lead at the moment.
        If it isn't PCS, whats the point?
        with any questions or concerns.
        |


        Aggressive Defense (an oxymoron): A naturally occurring situational event where a defender is caught in a role reversal anomaly. Usually associated with lack of practice, discipline or map awareness in a team based conflict.



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        • #5
          Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

          Originally posted by Yer Mom
          If you all will notice, Root has a bind that says, "Cut the chatter red 2."

          I've never understood the "Red 2" part,
          And if I said that the previous line was Wedge saying "look at the size of that thing" would light dawn on marble head? ;)

          <braces for impact against lots of dodgy remarks>

          Root
          BFCL TF2 league admin

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          • #6
            Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

            Originally posted by cookietester
            And if I said that the previous line was Wedge saying "look at the size of that thing" would light dawn on marble head? ;)

            <braces for impact against lots of dodgy remarks>

            Root
            Beware of Root...he is much like the mighty Sarlac!
            If it isn't PCS, whats the point?
            with any questions or concerns.
            |


            Aggressive Defense (an oxymoron): A naturally occurring situational event where a defender is caught in a role reversal anomaly. Usually associated with lack of practice, discipline or map awareness in a team based conflict.



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

              Most of the "chatter" I like...

              Smoke at A
              2 guys sniping long a, but I can't see anybody else...
              b,b,b,b!!!!!
              Dog I saw somebody around the corner to the left...
              Dog, don't move forward.. he'll pop you...
              I've got water noise at b...
              Can somebody buy me ammo?
              I'm going to flash twice..

              I think later in the round when ambient noise is more important the chatter lessons on it's own anyway.. (more guys are dead.. )

              Voicecoms in CS are marginal at best anyway... a good 20% I barely understand

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              • #8
                Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                With regard to voice chatter there is definitely way too much of late. Not because of the amout per se, but the *content*. I probably talk more than most of the rest of you put together, but I keep it concise. I tell you where I'm going at the round start, I tell you when I'm in position, I tell you when I'm changing location and where said new location is. I tell you where targets are, how many, where the targets I kill are. I WARN BEFORE USING A FLASHBANG, which is something one or two regs on the server could use lessons in. In fact I call almost all my nades. When I tag hostages, you know not only how many I have, but WHERE I have rescued them from. If anyone goes looking for hostages on the havana balcony to find them already gone, it's because that person didn't listen, not because I didn't tell them. I tell you when I respond to your call for backup, or that I'm not responding because you're at B on cbble, 5 members of the team are already mobile to your position, and you've said you can only see 1 target. I call for backup when I need it, only to die because 3 or 4 CT's are wasting time with a T at the wrong end of compound, while my corpse rots at the hostage shed. I wouldn't complain if there was far MORE voice comms, if it was of a similar type to my own. Some of you don't feel the need to give as much info as I do - that's your playstyle. At least you don't talk about rubbish like some people do.

                My favourite example of people not listening at the moment, is when I try and talk the bomber to the perfect plant spot on piranesi, and they simply don't listen.

                The same applies to people carrying on idle conversation from when they are dead into the next round. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be helping your team complete it's objective if you are typing messages about girls, graphics cards, key binds etc. Ideally everyone who plays on our server would use a mic. That's not the situation, so we need everyone that does use one to use it wisely. Information is critical, and using a mic means you can relay information to the team and die on the bounce at the same time. It also means your team mates don't have to divert their attention from the xhair to the text at the bottom of the screen. This will keep them alive longer and help the team complete the objective.

                The other critical issue with voice comms, is the disturbing absence of people who LISTEN and UNDERSTAND what is being said. I've heard a spotter call 1 target going B on dust2, seen my team wait at spawn to see if this number changes, and then had the bomber call A as the target. Great, but this was a 7v7 game, meaning they hadn't listened properly, or had failed to understand that this meant going up against 6 targets at A, when there was only 1 loser, ahem, CT at B. I've seen this happen again and again on dust2 of late, with varying numbers of CT's at B, but with the bomber opting for the more heavily defended site. No point in intel if you're not going to use it.

                There is no TG requirement that I know of that says the bomber must choose the site, in fact I believe the opposite is correct. The reason I look to the bomber each round is because the OBJECTIVE is to ESCORT the BOMBER to the BOMB SITE and ENSURE DETONATION. If someone else in the team chooses B, and the team all run off to clear the way for the bomber, whats to stop the bomber deciding they simply don't want to go to that site? They wander off to A, die, and the team then has to try and recover the bomb. If the CT's are playing the game properly, they'll all be racing for the bomb, and those already there will have set up a perimeter. Result? Creamed T. In my view the bomber has the ultimate veto over any plan by virtue of having that which the others are there to protect - the bomb.

                If the bomber asks the team which site, I gently nudge them into making the call, but I'm not going to force a bomber to make the call if they don't want to. Slaying a bomber who simply runs off without the team is a totally different matter however....

                Typing this lot it's really dawned on me that there's a third issue that could be addressed, but I can't think of the words to define it. No one seems to be prepared to stand right in front of a bomber, looking outwards for targets while the bomb is planted. As many of you know, I've been nominated for a golden lemming award for doing exactly this recently. Thinking about it, no CS player should have a nomination for that, because we should all be doing it every round. There are exceptions - a competant sniper in the side window at A on piranesi is probably going to be more use to the team there, *as long as* there are other bodies to soak up the bullets for the bomber. It's not just at planting though, T's tend to let the bomber go first every map, every round, and this is not right. Maybe it's fragmonkeying, maybe it's a survival instinct.

                At the same time, using piranesi as an example, once that bombs down at A, and I have a clear shot at any CT's that try to defuse, very few people answer the call to provide security for me in the side window, which means any CT can waltz in across the roof and shoot me in the back. If the sniper in the window dies, the bomb is more likely to get defused. Of course at this point, the T's that were so reluctant to catch bullets during the plant are all in the open, ignoring calls to take cover. More often than not, this results in dead T's who should have survived the round. The objective is to ensure detonation, but that does not require the T's to be slaughtered when a sniper can single handedly ensure the bomb goes off.

                If someone can sum up the problem defined in the last 2 paragraphs, perhaps people might start to think about it, which might lead to a change in the situation.


                Root
                BFCL TF2 league admin

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                • #9
                  Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                  Originally posted by cookietester

                  snip

                  The same applies to people carrying on idle conversation from when they are dead into the next round. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be helping your team complete it's objective if you are typing messages about girls, graphics cards, key binds etc. Ideally everyone who plays on our server would use a mic. That's not the situation, so we need everyone that does use one to use it wisely. Information is critical, and using a mic means you can relay information to the team and die on the bounce at the same time. It also means your team mates don't have to divert their attention from the xhair to the text at the bottom of the screen. This will keep them alive longer and help the team complete the objective.

                  snip
                  Root
                  I agree with most of what you said so well...

                  cept this ;-)

                  I think it's important to remember... this is a game... and this is a community... people get a chance to communicate and be social when they are not active... It's one of the reasons I come... people greet you.. ask questions ...joke .... etc...
                  To me.. that aspect is all good... and is one of the reasons I'm here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                    Originally posted by Dog
                    I agree with most of what you said so well...

                    cept this ;-)

                    I think it's important to remember... this is a game... and this is a community... people get a chance to communicate and be social when they are not active... It's one of the reasons I come... people greet you.. ask questions ...joke .... etc...
                    To me.. that aspect is all good... and is one of the reasons I'm here.
                    Thats not lost on me. I greet people. I don't object to people greeting others. I just don't want my game ruined by this happening in the middle of a firefight. Between firefights I'll even taunt some of you that can see the funny side of being rooted with a 228 at range :icon_razz My point is there's a time and place for everything. When I'm a good admin and die straight away to appease the peasents, I'm as involved in the general chit chat as anyone. By the time my team moves out of spawn again, I'm hitting the cut the chatter keybind. When I'm in a game, I take it seriously. Team work is important, but so is winning :icon_bigg

                    Root
                    BFCL TF2 league admin

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                      ok ill try...

                      The job of all Ts not carrying the bomb is to ESCORT the BOMBER to the agreed upon BOMB SITE (unless the plan calls for distraction), ENSURE PLANT, and ENSURE DETONATION. Like the Secret Service protecting the Prez, Ts should be willing to take bullets for the bomber while planting. Once planted however, it is not smart to sit on the bomb (nade or a sprayer may take you out) create a perimeter and back each other up. Use the fact that the CTs have to be near the bomb to defuse, and take them out . Dont make it easy for them to take you out as they approach the bomb...thats just stupid.
                      Let the Cts feel that they can defuse since they cannot find any ts protecting the bomb...then BAM headshot to the poor defusing Ct...leaving his buddies to waste time trying to figure out where the shot came from before they feel secure again....BOOM...Ts win. Back to the drawing board CTs

                      Side note....not wise to plant bomb near cover...Cts will use cover to defuse while you stuggle to find a clear shot to kill them. Harder to stay alive long enough to defuse a bomb in the open...also harder to plant in open....but thats why we have people like Root, who protects the bomber.

                      -swoop-

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                        This isn't a solution but yet another question, is it possible to limit comms in a manner that Vulcan was referring to? I would much prefer it if I could relay messages, this might slow reaction times down, but if you get contacts at 2 different sites at the same time both sites are going to call out "enemy spotted at my position" and this can lead to quite a bit of communication. I've also noticed that this happens an excessive amount in captain's games where in the spirit of being more tactical, everyone also reports everything. This is nice and all, but I think things would run smoother if when teams broke off into seperate directions, the squad leader could handle radio comms and everyone else could be relegated to team chat and team binds.... Not sure if that would work, but, something does need to be done, I do appreciate relevant intel, the kind Root was referring to, that way, if I have 2 or 3 teams calling out enemy locations, it just might be possible for someone to decipher the entirety of the enemy positions, and their possible plan of attack or defense.
                        Oh, and for those of you that can't hear me sometimes, I try to speak clearly and keep my outgoing voice comms set at half volume for those that are trying to listen for ambient noises. Something more does need to be worked out, another possible solution I just thought of, if someone like Ouija or Yer Mom is on, would it be possible to have them take on a job like forward scout/listener, and provide them with binds to toggle on and off incoming voice comms. If you need to communicate with such a person, then make sure you use team chat to bring them back if the entirety of the enemy forces have gone the other way.
                        Finally, this is my one gripe. If you are playing the defensive team, can we please not have everyone abandoning a position just because you are getting reports of enemies spotted at the other site. This problem is made abundantly clear on maps like prodigy where I can be at guard house with 2 or 3 other CT's and the rest at long hall start shouting about targets at long hall. At this point, my support at guard house falls back to long hall before our team has taken a single loss. This doesn't seem very tactical, in fact it seems like they are trying to be where the action is, I've seen this taken to two different extremes. Sometimes, long hall is a diversion and the CT's there will call out, only one enemy spotted, and my support still falls back to long hall. The other extreme, CT's at long hall call out enemies spotted at long hall, and I see 4 or 5 kills pop up on my screen and not a single CT is dead, and yet all of my support will fall back. <Rant OFF>

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                          Originally posted by Vulcan
                          I have a cousin who was a navy seal. We talk about chain of communication all the time. It's very similar with any squad type combat. the squad leaders communicate with the commander and only necessary information is passed. The squad leaders do not usually speak unless spoken too and the others in the squad do not communicate with the commander. simple chain of communication not very hard to understand. I think more of this needs to implemented on TG servers for the purpose of tactical play IMO.
                          One of the awesome things about Battlefield 2 is that it implements chain of command for voice communications.
                          Twisted Firestarter
                          a.k.a |TG| Harkonian
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tactical Stand-points and You.

                            Originally posted by Dog
                            Most of the "chatter" I like...
                            b,b,b,b!!!!!
                            Hmmm I think that sounds like me LMAO!
                            Usually when I am alone at a site and the whole squad of Ts show I have found myself having to yell over the chatter. Now I am one thats all for yapping, and enemy locating, but when I am trying to here for feetsteps......someone squawking and a loud rate that that don't see anyone is about as useless as teets on a bull.

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