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  • Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

    Ok folks. I went on a short vacation this past weekend and was hoping to come back to some great forum threads and PCS games. What I came back to was more gripes about admins, bitching about PCS guidelines, moaning about server rules & restrictions, snide remarks and a general lack of respect for your fellow TG player.

    I'm all for healthy debates, but we haven't had too many of those, IMO. Many of the threads read as attacks against an individual or a group. I also see responses that get very defensive. We all have different styles of communication and everyone needs to realize that text written in a forum does not display body language, tone of voice and facial expressions. I know when I write something I think it comes out one way, when another person reads it another. Just think about it before you hit the save/send/whatever button.

    I'm going to try and sum up a few different threads that have occured recently. Sorry if this is a lengthy post.

    --------------------
    Professional Counter-Strike is a way of playing that utilizes teamwork, strategy and tactics. It's working towards your team's objective.

    Ok, so all you keep hearing it teamwork, objective and communication. You want strict rules, regulations and something written down to follow. It would be a tedious task to document all of the scenarios that may present itself. There is little black and white answers. Some actions may be ok in one situation but not another.

    I'm not talking about strategies and tactics because we're not trying to force people into the same strategy and tactic, but think about the intent of what you're doing. This is where it gets tricky. We do have to limit people from using certain strategies/tactics because it leads more towards deathmatch.

    For example, one strategy often debated is the elimination of the other team to complete the objective. Why can't the terrorists (on a hostage map) search out and destroy the CTs? It's a valid strategy, just not one that we allow here at TG. That quickly leads to a deathmatch server.

    The maps also force us to limit some strategies. The maps are small and predictable. You always know where the bomb sites, hostages, spawn points, etc. are. Due to this some people want to have the defensive team rush towards the offensive team's spawn to bottle them in. While this may be a viable strategy, it is also not one we condone here at TG. This too causes the server to quickly become a deathmatch server.

    Ok, so you still have questions on how "far" you can go. Let's think about intent and objective. We'll use Italy as an example. You want to know if a terrorist can go into the cellar. The PCS answer is yes and no. What is the situation and why are you down there? What do you hope to accomplish when down there? Let's walk through some examples.

    Let's say we're just starting a new round so both teams have seven players. If three terrorists head into the cellar, what do they hope to accomplish? Are they defending a choke hold? Possibly, but they are leaving only four Ts to defend three other choke holds. Are they attempting to relay intel? Doubt it, otherwise only one T would be necessary to hide (and not engage). So what reason is there for three Ts in the cellar? Hard to tell, but my first impression is for a kill.

    Now let's say that we are starting a new round and only one T heads into the cellar. What is he doing for his team and objective? Defending a choke hold? Possibly. Attempting to provide intel to his team? If the T is hiding and allows several CTs to pass him (because CTs don't look in the cellar), then he has a chance to provide needed intel. Now it might be likely for the T to coordinate with another T or two and engage the CTs. Should all of this happen every round? Probably not, but I'm not here to stop a bad strategy. I would just hope that the T getting caught everytime in the cellar would realize they are not helping their team and change it up a bit.

    Again, many of these scenarios are talking about strategy and tactics... and we limit some of those to keep from becoming a deathmatch server.

    So where do these imaginary boundaries come in? They are imaginary. They do not exist. Each person has a different interpretation of a boundary. What that means is that each person is judging your "intent" differently.

    What do you do if the opposing team is constantly pushing these imaginary boundaries? What you really mean is what if the opposing team (or a player) is out looking for the frag and not the objective. Well, you and your team should not take anything for granted. Check around each corner and be prepared for the bad guy to show his ugly head. That should be good for you because your seven against his one should hopefully eliminate them. There is also the course of contacting an admin.

    Now that we've discussed strategy and tactics, and why we limit some strategy and tactics, let's discuss teamwork and communication. As a team you need to formulate your strategy to complete the objective. There are many ways to formulate a strategy. However you formulate the plan, everyone on the team should be of the same understanding. There should not be players saying "I am going to go cause a distraction or snipe this route" unless that is part of the strategy. I have fallen victim to doing this myself. There is nothing wrong with asking if that should be a part of the plan, but make sure the team has the same understanding.

    There are several forms of communication. The worst is no communication. Learn to communicate before you engage. Learn how to provide effective communication. Telling your teammates "A" means nothing, other than you know the first letter of the alphabet. Telling your teammates "Two bogies at long hall" is more effective. When you need reinforcements, call for reinforcements, don't just call out a letter. While you are alive, please use the voice comm wisely. Also learn to use the radio commands.

    Ok, so we're using teamwork to complete the objective... what are the objectives. There are multi-tiered objectives and yes, you can probably come up with those situations that change what I'm about to list... but in general...

    On a defuse map...
    The terrorists objective is to protect the bomb carrier, plant the bomb and defend the bomb.
    The CTs objective is to defend the bomb sites and defend a dropped bomb.

    On a hostage map...
    The Ts objective is to guard the hostages.
    The CTs objective is to rescue the hostages.

    But what about such and such scenario. Yes, already. There are scenarios that may alter your strategy and tactics. Again, back to Italy. Let's say that there are four Ts left and only one CT. Does this mean that the Ts should go out hunting to kill the last CT because they have numbers? No. But let's say that the CT has been spotted moving up long hall. One possible plan that the Ts could use (assuming team communication) is to send one (or maybe two) Ts down the middle stairs to come up behind the last CT.

    Why is this different than just hunting down the enemy team? I don't have a good answer for that at the moment. This is all situational. When PCS becomes natural to you, these situations will too. In this case, I would think that the Ts are assessing their numbers situation. They are communicating and they are defending a choke hold. Defending does not mean camping. In this case, a flank is a smart thing to do. I don't want to judge smart vs. not smart, but it does look that way. I would also hope that had the CT turned around to retreat back down the long hall, the Ts would have notified each other and the T that was flanking would have withdrawn. The point is not to chase the CT around the map.

    One thing I like to think about is the time clock. As a member of the defending team, my ultimate goal is to let the time elapse. My goal is not to end the round quickly. To me, that is looking for the kill. If I can keep the bomb carrier away from the bomb site or protect a downed bomb and let the time elapse, I've completed the objective to the fullest. I don't need the kill.

    So in this lengthy post (not done yet) we've talked about limiting strategy/tactics, teamwork, communication and objective. Talk (or forum posts) is not getting the point across to people. We seem to be degrading in our PCS play. We are trying different ways to promote PCS play. Hard boundards was one attempt, member only server was another and we are onto a PCS protected server now. Don't bitch and whine about it, but let's do talk about it. We are trying different solutions. We have heard a few comments about training and we are also looking into that.

    And hopefully my last topic is the varying admin styles. Each admin has their own style of performing their duties. I don't want us to be the same. You may like one style more than the other but you'll have to learn to live with each admin's style. Don't complain about it to other players, especially on the server. PM the admin first. If that doesn't resolve it then PM another admin or Apophis. We do listen to what you say, though we may not always make a change. The admin's are learning from each other what is effective and what isn't. We are not the gods of the server, we are human beings freely giving away our play time in an attempt to make the TG server better. <-- see that... that was the TG server, not just your server. It is our (TG community) server.

    Alright then... if you made it this far, thanks for taking the time to read that post. Let's all now hold hands and sing Kum-by-ah. Honestly though, can we quit the bickering? Take your skirts off and deal. Don't pick at symantecs and try to learn what is intended.
    |TG-12th| asch
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

    Thank you for your very detailed and thoughtfull post. I have noticed that everyone has been getting a bit edge and disrespectfull. I hope that we can all get along and play by the rules. I really enjoy these servers and hope to see a lot more coopeation. Thats just my agreeence and Thank you. :)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

      sob.... I love you..........

      so well said... thx for the voice...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

        Make this sticky, and I'm satisfied. Great Job, Asch!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

          Originally posted by TG_Mateo
          Make this sticky, and I'm satisfied. Great Job, Asch!
          Amen to that brother!


          - "Children in the back seat cause accidents, accidents in the back seat cause children."
          - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

          ~ SephVal <--> TG-303rd Master Sergeant (MSG) <--> Distinguished Sniper - Class I


          ~ COD4 Sniper <--> Owner of the Golden Dragunov

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

            Originally posted by Dr Omega
            Thank you for your very detailed and thoughtfull post. I have noticed that everyone has been getting a bit edge and disrespectfull. I hope that we can all get along and play by the rules. I really enjoy these servers and hope to see a lot more coopeation. Thats just my agreeence and Thank you. :)

            You hit it right on the nail Omega. Especially the second to last sentence :)
            |CS:S Development Team|

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

              if it is possible id like to nominate this to both sticky and required reading as it awnsers the questions that the rules raise like nothing else ive seen here. its just so good.
              frowning takes 47 muscles, and smiling only take 17, but sitting there with a zombie like stare on your face takes 0, we have a winner.

              The fights are so bitter because the stakes are so small. -watch words of academia

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                I now the post looks long, but heck, if I read it so can you. EVERYONE should read this, it really helped me, even though I like to think that I already knew this stuff.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                  That was a good read, thanks for sharing, asch. I'll try to keep this all in mind (even if my brain is pretty swollen) when playing.

                  I think this should by sticky'd, as it covers a lot of stuff that newcomers should read.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                    Yes I have also notice alot of *interesting* debate over the last week. I also seem to recall that most of these debates have taken place before, with the same result.

                    BTW....Nice post Asch



                    A good man stands up for himself. A great man stands up for others.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                      OMGWTFsIgLeNgTh oMeGa

                      Yep i /agree with everything asch said.


                      - -

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                        Now THIS is a constitution of PCS if I ever saw one. Better yet it has included examples to make it understandable to those who dont quite grasp the level of detail. This kicks the pants off just saying "follow PCS".

                        -Zephyr
                        You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

                        You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

                        Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

                        Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

                        We are no clan.
                        We are not a single game.
                        We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
                        We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                          Originally posted by Zephyr
                          Now THIS is a constitution of PCS if I ever saw one. Better yet it has included examples to make it understandable to those who dont quite grasp the level of detail. This kicks the pants off just saying "follow PCS".
                          Quite.
                          You want something to set in stone? Make it this post. None of this "PCS is" crap.

                          Kudos to you, asch, for giving eloquence to the heavyhanded.
                          [volun2]
                          NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
                          Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
                          <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
                          <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

                          Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                            Again make this a sticky and maybe a required reading. Let the people be heard!


                            - "Children in the back seat cause accidents, accidents in the back seat cause children."
                            - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

                            ~ SephVal <--> TG-303rd Master Sergeant (MSG) <--> Distinguished Sniper - Class I


                            ~ COD4 Sniper <--> Owner of the Golden Dragunov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Bickering, rules, respect, etc. (length)

                              Sticky that sucker!

                              Comment

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