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  • cs_havana

    There is a second floor spot on this map I find questionable and would like to know if Ts are allowed to use it:

    Location: Top of Pipes

    With the help of a fellow T, you can get over the bars that border the bridge and walk along the edge of the wall to the top of pipes. From this vantage point, you can get quick recon on how many (if any) CTs are headed for Courtyard and perhaps take one or two out.

    Techinically, its still 2nd floor, but is it permissable?
    Josh -
    Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

  • #2
    Re: Cs_Havana

    Well, considering that I have seen, many many times, a certain admin sending either himself or a teammate on T downstairs to the hostie rescue zone, at the beginning of the round, to scout out quickly to see if CT's are coming his way....I would have to say yes, the top of pipes are fine.

    I ALSO believe it is fine to drop down the hole, mid game, if you know that there are CT's underneath you at courtyard and you can surprise them with a blinding flash and kill their team, but only if your team has sufficient players left upstairs in case you die. This is a very good tactical move and it will most likely eliminate at least 3 to 5 CT's in one hit.

    I am a BIG believer that you should not feel "safe" anywhere on the map at any time. you must always be on guard, watching your rear and flanks no matter if you are in your spawn or anywhere else. I dont think it is right that, for instance, on Italy, a CT at apartment exit can open fire at you and then retreat 3 steps around the corner into the next apt. room and "feel safe", feel that you, as a T, "cannot" go in there. WRONG! A T might, if he knows you are still in there, toss in a flash and come in to that room and slaughter you, then retreat back to the outside. THIS is real playing. This is not killhunting, rather, it is playing with your head and gut. If you are a CT in this scenario, and you do decide to pop in and out of the apartments, realize that you must be on guard even if you hop into the next little room that keeps you out of the direct line of fire from the T's. i will come after you because if I dont then shame on me for being foolish.
    What I wont do is shoot you inside, then run in farther looking for more kills.
    I hope you see the difference and realize what I am saying holds truth.




    All I ask for is communication

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    • #3
      Re: Cs_Havana

      Originally posted by Ben
      Well, considering that I have seen, many many times, a certain admin sending either himself or a teammate on T downstairs to the hostie rescue zone, at the beginning of the round, to scout out quickly to see if CT's are coming his way....I would have to say yes, the top of pipes are fine.
      This is wrong, and the admin should not be down there. Under no circumstances should T's be downstairs unless hostages are in motion. It is tactically unsound.

      A plausable Defense can be mounted from the upstairs on this map without compromising the objective.

      I ALSO believe it is fine to drop down the hole, mid game, if you know that there are CT's underneath you at courtyard and you can surprise them with a blinding flash and kill their team, but only if your team has sufficient players left upstairs in case you die. This is a very good tactical move and it will most likely eliminate at least 3 to 5 CT's in one hit.
      That's also kill hunting. It may be a fine tactical move, but has nothing to do with defending the objective, which are the hostages upstairs. We play the objective, not the man.

      I am a BIG believer that you should not feel "safe" anywhere on the map at any time. you must always be on guard, watching your rear and flanks no matter if you are in your spawn or anywhere else.
      Noone should feel safe on any map. That said, supporting your teammates and achieving their objective impose certain constraints. The opposing Spawn are off limits, and will warrant a quick ban.

      I dont think it is right that, for instance, on Italy, a CT at apartment exit can open fire at you and then retreat 3 steps around the corner into the next apt. room and "feel safe", feel that you, as a T, "cannot" go in there. WRONG! A T might, if he knows you are still in there, toss in a flash and come in to that room and slaughter you, then retreat back to the outside.
      And will earn a quick kick. The decision regarding T's being in apartments is not up for discussion.

      THIS is real playing. This is not killhunting, rather, it is playing with your head and gut. If you are a CT in this scenario, and you do decide to pop in and out of the apartments, realize that you must be on guard even if you hop into the next little room that keeps you out of the direct line of fire from the T's.
      Every time a T goes into the apartements, they die, leaving that path open for the CTs to advance. It is therefore. not tactically sound for you to be there. You can defend apartments quite well from the alley, the roof, or the corner without leaving your teammates high and dry.

      i will come after you because if I dont then shame on me for being foolish. What I wont do is shoot you inside, then run in farther looking for more kills. I hope you see the difference and realize what I am saying holds truth.
      What you are saying is personal opinion, and has little, if anything to do with the established rules of this server.

      - rep.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cs_Havana

        so there are boundries here? because I still cannot fathom why a T cannot toss a flash into the apartments and kill a CT that is in there. it might be the established rules but it should be reviewed. You mention "tactically sound" yet what your are saying is neither tactically sound nor logical.
        Are we playing pac man or a counter terror game?
        Either the admins need to post a thread with specific boundries or you need to look into the "rules" you swear by. What is tactically unsound to you is tactically sound to me.

        And so what if i die doing it? I thought the objective was to defend the hosties, not worry about life or death? Is this right? If so, then why is it not "tactically sound" to ambush the opposing team while the remainder of your team stays upstairs? For as long as I play here I will never, ever understand this logic.

        Thought - if you have the ability to kill half of the opposing team, and the potential to do even more damage to the remainders, then why not take that chance. You are not putting the objective at risk at all and are actually assisting your team in stopping the opposition from attacking with a full force? Anyone who has been underneath the courtyard as a CT knows that when a flash is thrown in there from above, you are blinded quite well. This would present an opportunity for a T to drop down and kill as many as possible on the CT team and wound the rest.
        Actually, I have seen people in trees in the courtyard, on the ledge of the atrium and they present no better defence to the hosties then the scenario I am suggesting.

        Quoted from your post in the "How Far is Toooo far" thread - "Anyone past the door will get a quick kick if I am on. How can you argue that you are defending the hostages, when you leave positions where you can defend the entrance and get back to the house in order to hunt for a kill?"
        This is your quote, yet you are all for being above the apartments? what is the difference? at least in the apartments (right inside, not all the way in) you limit the angles of fire that you are exposed to. At least in the apartments you know exactley where the enemy is. etc


        Also, BEFORE I became PCS Proven, all I would hear from the upper crust of the admins was that since they, the admins, were PCS players, they could advance the limits more than others. So now that others besides the admins have this title, all of a sudden PCS Proven cannot push the limits? Pushing the limits is not breaking the "rules", rather it is playing with a more aggressive style that is befitting a player that has shown considerable strength in all areas of team play and leadership.
        It's too bad that you have no defense of this issue rather than "it's the rules". The rules are outdated and need review. A noob player should have set limits since we know his tendancy will be to rush and kill hunt all day long. Veteran players should be given more leeway with regards to their tactics and strategy.
        This is why we have forums, to discuss and to vent. post -rep all day long, I am doing what should be done on the forum and not in game, so -rep to you as well.
        Last edited by Ben; 02-02-2006, 12:35 PM.




        All I ask for is communication

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Cs_Havana

          Originally posted by Ben
          so there are boundries here? because I still cannot fathom why a T cannot toss a flash into the apartments and kill a CT that is in there. it might be the established rules but it should be reviewed. You mention "tactically sound" yet what your are saying is neither tactically sound nor logical.
          Yes, it is logical. Going into that first room cuts you off from LOS from a covering teammate on the corner, assuming you have one. In addition, as we have mentioned in more than one place, going further into apartments makes it impossible to get back to the house to cover the OBJECTIVE, the hostages.

          The logical assumption question is: what maximizes the completion of that goal with the least amount of risk to your team?

          Being in that first room, even momentarily, tilts that risk v. objective completion formula into the too much risk for little or no reward that cannot be achieved elsewhere.

          Are we playing pac man or a counter terror game?
          All along, it has been said that PCS is as real as we can make it, based on the engine. There are some things which we do not allow, and those are well covered throughout the SOPs and forums. Any deviation from the rules as they stand are welcome to be discussed, but not if they lead to histrionics or team death match.

          Either the admins need to post a thread with specific boundries or you need to look into the "rules" you swear by. What is tactically unsound to you is tactically sound to me.
          PCS players understand the rules, and whether or not they agree with them, they abide by them. If you do not, I suggest you find a new server that meets your gameplay needs.

          And so what if i die doing it? I thought the objective was to defend the hosties, not worry about life or death? Is this right? If so, then why is it not "tactically sound" to ambush the opposing team while the remainder of your team stays upstairs? For as long as I play here I will never, ever understand this logic.
          If you are maximizing your TEAM'S chance of achieving the objective, you are not needlessly taking risks in the defense of that objective. The use of defensive rushes and other offense as defense tactics are coverred well throughout the forum.

          Thought - if you have the ability to kill half of the opposing team, and the potential to do even more damage to the remainders, then why not take that chance.
          So, your goal is to get more kills instead of achieving the objective? How does that relate to PCS?

          Also, BEFORE I became PCS Proven, all I would hear from the upper crust of the admins was that since they, the admins, were PCS players, they could advance the limits more than others. So now that others besides the admins have this title, all of a sudden PCS Proven cannot push the limits? Pushing the limits is not breaking the "rules", rather it is playing with a more aggressive style that is befitting a player that has shown considerable strength in all areas of team play and leadership.
          And how far would you go in pushing the limits before server 1 is merely another deathmatch?

          It's too bad that you have no defense of this issue rather than "it's the rules". The rules are outdated and need review. A noob player should have set limits since we know his tendancy will be to rush and kill hunt all day long. Veteran players should be given more leeway with regards to their tactics and strategy.
          If it were up to me, this thread would have been locked. All of these things, including the reasoning behind them are covered throughout the forums, and are not up for discussion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Cs_Havana

            So answer the question, what is the point of PCS Proven? Is it to continue being told what is tactical and what is not tactical by you or anyone else? I was under the opinion that we have attained a certain level due to our ability to make these choices!?!?
            Also, please spare me the attitude of "PCS players understand the rules, and whether or not they agree with them, they abide by them. If you do not, I suggest you find a new server that meets your gameplay needs."

            your quote:
            "Yes, it is logical. Going into that first room cuts you off from LOS from a covering teammate on the corner, assuming you have one. In addition, as we have mentioned in more than one place, going further into apartments makes it impossible to get back to the house to cover the OBJECTIVE, the hostages."
            How does going 5 steps into the apartments make it impossible to get back into the house to cover the objective?
            My feeling is that you are wrong on this issue.

            You represent yourself, and I represent a wide group of talented players that feel frustrated with rule book and babysitting techniques.

            YAWN..this is getting old

            Root : OTT comments removed.
            Last edited by Root; 02-02-2006, 01:19 PM.




            All I ask for is communication

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Cs_Havana

              In response to the original question, no. You're exposed, you have no quick backup, and if a CT comes into the back alley with a scout, you're possibly going to be dead before you realise you're in danger.

              Originally posted by Ben
              Well, considering that I have seen, many many times, Root sending either himself or a teammate on T downstairs to the hostie rescue zone, at the beginning of the round, to scout out quickly to see if CT's are coming his way.
              Quote edited for clarity.

              Knowledge is power. The first thing T's should be doing on havana, is identifiying which 2 routes are open. I have no trouble with a PCS Proven player doing what I have been known to do, which is exactly this : drop through the hole, check if the door to the alley is open, communicate either way whilst moving back upstairs. Standing still is not a requirement in the above, especially if the door is closed. Of course, if the rest of the team are playing properly, they'll have already checked both atrium doors, and the window, so it may not be necessary to recon the alley. I've noticed that many members don't put 2 and 2 together on havana. If the door to the right of CT spawn is open, and the first atrium door is open, why on earth do so many of you then proceed to check if the window route is available, when you all know that only 2 of the 4 routes are ever open?

              Originally posted by Ben
              I ALSO believe it is fine to drop down the hole, mid game, if you know that there are CT's underneath you at courtyard and you can surprise them with a blinding flash and kill their team, but only if your team has sufficient players left upstairs in case you die. This is a very good tactical move and it will most likely eliminate at least 3 to 5 CT's in one hit.
              With all the ME-play types that we've had on the server, I think the CT's generally cover the hole in the floor for any "accidental" drops. Certainly when I'm on CT's (which is roughly 2986% of the time), I'm likely to be found in that part of the map keeping watch. Dropping down and wiping out most of the team is tactically sound, but ONLY if you have knowledge of exactly what's waiting for you. Until they start issuing T's with fibre optic cameras, it's suicide to risk your plan.

              Originally posted by Ben
              I dont think it is right that, for instance, on Italy, a CT at apartment exit can open fire at you and then retreat 3 steps around the corner into the next apt. room and "feel safe", feel that you, as a T, "cannot" go in there.
              So you go in there and kill the CT. Meanwhile, I have a fireteam at LH, and a second team at cellar. I'm actually waiting for you to kill the guy in the apartment, at which point I initiate a long hall rush. The only downside to that plan, is that the smoke nades are pretty much the same as giving the T's a month's notice of what we're going to do. Maybe you get a warning via comms and start pulling back, but then while my LH team is lobbing it's HE's, I give my cellar team the go, and you're now cut off from the hostages.

              Originally posted by Ben
              It's too bad that you have no defense of this issue rather than "it's the rules". The rules are outdated and need review.
              That's pushing the limits, and not in a good way. "It's the rules" is exactly the only defence any admin needs.

              Originally posted by Mateo
              If it were up to me, this thread would have been locked.
              This from a guy with a WoW sig? :)

              I'm not going to lock the thread..... yet. Let's see if we can use it to educate people. Any mod that thinks things have gone to far will lock it.
              BFCL TF2 league admin

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Cs_Havana

                Originally posted by Ben
                You represent yourself, and I represent a wide group of talented players that feel frustrated with ..... rule book and babysitting techniques.
                Here's some good advice, not just for you, but for everyone. Don't speak for others. Let them speak for themselves, and you do the same.

                Mateo represents his own views, but he does so as part of the team of PCS admins. We don't share a telepathic link (Apophis said it wasn't cost effective, and he was out of beer). Sometimes there are crossed wires, and of course our own opinions can come out. That said, we're all here for the same reasons.

                Ben - you've made some comments to the effect that you're not happy with the way PCS Proven players are being admin'd. How much of your PCS time do you spend on server 2? You (all PCS Provens) are extremely unlikely to get the full PCS experience unless you're on server 2.
                BFCL TF2 league admin

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                • #9
                  Re: Cs_Havana

                  So, where does this put the guy above apartments? he is in the same (worse in regards to taking enemy fire) position as the guy in the apartment going to flash and kill a ct that is cowering inside.

                  ?




                  All I ask for is communication

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cs_Havana

                    Server 2 is always dead, thats a fact. I always look for server 2 first, but it is empty.




                    All I ask for is communication

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cs_Havana

                      Originally posted by Ben
                      So, where does this put the guy above apartments?
                      It puts him above the apartment :D

                      But seriously - he's in a better position than anyone inside. He can recon towards the cellar, own a vast majority of the middle area, and watch the apartment exit.

                      The guy inside the apartment can (most probably) die. He's also further away from the hostages than the guy on the roof.
                      BFCL TF2 league admin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cs_Havana

                        Originally posted by Ben
                        Server 2 is always dead, thats a fact.
                        An undisputed fact. What are you (the PCS Proven players) doing about it?

                        Originally posted by Ben
                        I always look for server 2 first, but it is empty.
                        How about waiting on there for a while? We've added the facility for you to play bots while you're waiting, and you also have a greater selection of maps on there. In addition, the launch of VIP is imminent.

                        I want server 2 to be a huge success. However, I can't populate it all by myself. It's down to the PCS Proven players to get on there, and make good use of such a fantastic resource. I'm not going to complain if it's not used 24/7, but right now we're wasting Apophis' money running a server that's not used even when there are sufficient PCS Proven players on server 1 to make good use of server 2
                        BFCL TF2 league admin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cs_Havana

                          well, I still dont know if I am from israel or Memphis, so leave me alone

                          :-)




                          All I ask for is communication

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Cs_Havana

                            Playing bots VS playing live? No contest




                            All I ask for is communication

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cs_Havana

                              Originally posted by Ben
                              Playing bots VS playing live? No contest
                              Bots suck, but that's not why they're there. They give you something to do while you're waiting for other players to arrive. Snoopy organised the recent scrim for us. Why doesn't a PCS Proven player use either this forum or the private forum I've provided, and arrange either a PCS Proven scrim, or simply an evening where server 2 is the venue for your game time?
                              BFCL TF2 league admin

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