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  • TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

    In the interest of making the server more noob friendly it would be nice to end this once and for all. Often times new players and regulars get jumped on for even mentioning boundaries. If you aren't up to speed, here are some posts to get you started: Priest. Root. Cingular Duality

    The crux of the argument goes like this: The TG server operates based on objectives. If you follow your objectives, you won't need to worry about boundaries because you will always be in the correct place.

    This is logical and easy to follow, no problem for the converted TG players.

    Unfortunately, newcomers to the server take a little hand holding. Before joining the TG server the majority of CS:S players have never been faced with making an objective decision. My argument is based on the assumption that it is impossible for new players to instantly understand the nuances that make the TG server what it is.

    I have observed two methods of "training" new arrivals. In my oppinion the second is the superior way.

    One: Tell them to play objectively by use of the "rescue hostages" or "plant/diffuse bomb" scripts.

    This is meaningless to a person unfamiliar to the server: all we are doing is echoing the gameplay type. By pubbing it has been drilled into the FPS gamer's mind that your are to KILL KILL KILL.

    It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to think "well, killiing the entire opposing team will complete my objective better than sitting here in the projector room..." I have seen many new players attempt to adhere to objective play only to confused by receiving a kick.

    By punishing these players we are failing ourselves and the community.


    Two: Give them quick and dirty guidelines. "If you are confused don't go here, here, or here"

    With clear boundaries we have established limits that the uninitiated can easily follow. They will remain on the server and not disrupt play, and hopefully pick up on some of the finer points of teamwork and objective thinking.

    In addition, we have a lot of custom maps on the server that new players have never played before. Unless we give them clear boundaries it is a mean trick to kick them for not following the "rules"

    Punishing the players that do not follow the boundaires is fair. We have given them a clear rule and they broke it.

    ----

    I only bring this up because in my year of playing at TG I havn't seen things get any better. New players are treated poorly and have to suffer through vauge and misleading direction. The tone given to players mentioning boundaries escpecially irks me.

    I don't see the community growing in a positive way: the forums are slow and the majority of the content is petty bickering. The server is often full, but rarely are there captains games or any advanced tactical play. Why is that? I have a theory, and it begins with our weak and confusing treatment of new players.

    I am interested to see the responses this thread yeilds.

    -Aaron

  • #2
    Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

    Guarding a bombsite is simple ; you go somewhere near the bombsite.

    Guarding the hostages is equally simple.

    Boundaries result in fragmonkeys pushing right up to those lines, and the next thing you know, they're slightly crossing them. Once they get away with slightly crossing them, they'll go further and further until they're in the offensive teams spawn.

    Players who get it don't need boundaries, because they undersand what the objective is, and they understand what we mean when we tell them to guard it.
    BFCL TF2 league admin

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    • #3
      Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

      Root> You're preaching to the choir here. I'm familiar with the TG rules.

      I'm sure you, of all people, have learned by now that telling new players to "guard the hostages" rarely works effectively, especially when regulars move to critical holding positions that aren't in direct line of sight of the hostages.

      The immediate question that rises is "so... you want me to just sit in this room and look at the hostages?"

      The following conversation that takes place after that question is a hand-waving that can be summaraized with the title of my OP.

      I'm just trying to be helpful here, and in my experience, telling new players to "guard the hostages" is meaningless. Further telling them "there are no boundaries" is than nonsense to a new player to the server.

      -Aaron

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      • #4
        Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

        I saw yesterday some of the issues that new players face. While a decent percentage of them are only asking questions about the rules as a method to find a way AROUND the rules, a smaller pecentage is seriously looking for guidance as they are interested in PCS and playing with mature players but having issues adapting themselves from pubbyhood.

        Gameplay such as that on TG is so rare that a CSS enthusiast, and potentially the best teamplayer we've ever had, will have had little opportunity to stretch those teamplay muscles on the wilderness of public servers. These players do need to be worked with to get them up to speed regarding how we do things.

        I think you raise a good question, Schwa. How do we educate these players effectively. Moreover; how do we determine what players are really looking for that education vs. just trying to manipulate the rules so they can still do whatever they like?

        In all honesty; my biggest frustration yesterday were players that just didn't know when to shut their mouth. Constant jabbering about everything under the sun.

        "Two T's just went by!.... One threw a smoke!.... I can't see!..... I still can't see!.... Now I'm blind!.... I can see again! They're all going to bombsite A! Everyone go to A!!!!!! Did I tell you my cat had kittens? Oh! I just saw another T!!!! This gun is nice. I love the sounds when I shoot at walls randomly... I have to go eat in about 45 minutes so I.. I just saw another T!!! EVERYONE GET TO A NOW!!!... will have to log off to eat but then I'll... HURRY! WE NEED PEOPLE AT A!!!! Be back. (Bomb planted at bombsite B) EVERYONE RUSH TO B!!!!"

        (Meanwhile, everyone runs off to A because the overly vocal smacktard made a snap decision as to what the entire team was doing that was completely incorrect and left me with 6 T's beating the crap out of me at bombsite B with no backup in sight because everyone had to run over to A).
        Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

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        • #5
          Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

          Originally posted by Apophis View Post
          In all honesty; my biggest frustration yesterday were players that just didn't know when to shut their mouth. Constant jabbering about everything under the sun.
          Too much talking, not enough communication. It's a constant battle, because you always have new players coming to the server. What's really disappointing though, is when TG'ers are the ones talking without actually saying anything of value.
          BFCL TF2 league admin

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          • #6
            Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

            Thank you Apophis, and you are right on target with what my post was about: how to best educate the new arrivals to our server.

            In my oppinion, echoing the allready known objectives is meaningless, and further telling them there are no boundaries is confusing.

            Learning the ropes at the TG server is hard. We need to remember that, and the admins need to have clear and easy to follow guidelines for those players who want to learn the ropes.

            Saying something like "guard the bombsite" is incredibly unclear to players who are used to pub play. If one wishes to further push this point I can easily direct you to many debates that take place on this forum discussing the finer points of where it is and isn't ok to do this from.

            Saying something like "if you are new here, don't leave the top floors on Italy" is clear, and for the most part effective.

            Kicking a player for violating an unclear rule does not build this community. It is impossible for us to expect new players to immediatly grasp the nuances of TG. Thus, we need quick and easy guidelines to help the wavering few to give them time to learn.

            Finially, I would like to remind ourselves that (to my knowledge) there is a PCS Proven server. While it is limited to a small, non-growing, number of players, it is the place where ultimate tactical play is supposed to be happening. The Public server is a place to offer the goodness of TG while building the community. Why is it such a taboo to help new players along by suggesting they stay within a certain area?

            -Aaron

            P.S.
            Originally posted by Apophis
            In all honesty; my biggest frustration yesterday were players that just didn't know when to shut their mouth. Constant jabbering about everything under the sun.
            Originally posted by Root View Post
            Too much talking, not enough communication. It's a constant battle, because you always have new players coming to the server. What's really disappointing though, is when TG'ers are the ones talking without actually saying anything of value.
            Please, do not steer this thread into a discussion about idle chat. If you would like to open a thread on that topic, I'll meet you there and agree.

            -Aaron

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

              Well, rather than set down specific places, I tend to follow a newer player and guide him myself when I'm around- as long as I'm not just crowding an overpopulated area. I try to instill the thought process rather than the dogma- IE, "That place is probably too far up for me or any other teammates to support you, please pull back," etc, rather than "get back here," (As I heard some of our more vocal newcomers doing yesterday) Whenever the server is fully populated, most recently, high percentages of those players are regulars or PCSP. I see no reason why this method couldn't be used for every new player that's willing to learn, other than not wanting to bother with the new guy.

              I would compare the difference between noob boundaries and tactical lessons to teaching a child to read by word memory or phonics- do you teach them specific words, and force them to ask for help on every unrecognized word, or do you teach them how to read new words for themselves?

              If a player IS in a tactically sound spot, although pushing ahead a bit much, I tell them that it's best to fall back until they become more recognized and experienced with the server.


              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                Originally posted by What Is Schwa? View Post
                In my oppinion, echoing the allready known objectives is meaningless, and further telling them there are no boundaries is confusing.
                Telling them that there ARE boundaries is just plain inaccurate. If a player is unable (or more likely unwilling) to grasp the concept of defending a bombsite or a pair of hostages, then they're not players we want on any TG server. The same goes for teamwork and communication. These are concepts that the average 10 year old can understand.

                Originally posted by Priest
                Well, rather than set down specific places, I tend to follow a newer player and guide him myself when I'm around- as long as I'm not just crowding an overpopulated area.
                Bingo! The only thing I would do different, is have the new player follow me. Each to their own.
                BFCL TF2 league admin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                  Originally posted by Priest View Post
                  I would compare the difference between noob boundaries and tactical lessons to teaching a child to read by word memory or phonics- do you teach them specific words, and force them to ask for help on every unrecognized word, or do you teach them how to read new words for themselves?
                  Fair enough, this is decent good analogy. However, when teaching someone how to do something, you don't kick him out the door when he makes a mistake.

                  Mistakes on the TG server effect everyone and can ruin an otherwise fun night of gaming. A player who rushes to areas he shouldn't be can sometimes eliminate a good portion of the team while they are still planning.

                  Therefor, mistakes are properly greeted with a kick. It gets the attention of the person violating the rules.

                  The problem arises when the rules aren't clear to new players. Saying things like "protect the hostages/bombsite" is nearly meaningless to a player who has never experienced our gameplay. Kicking a player for violating a vague rule leads to angry players, rather than educated players. This is especially frustrating to a new player when he has been kicked for being in the wrong place, but it has been repeated that TG does not have boundaries.

                  A PCSP server is the place for the boundaries debate. The public server clearly has them and it should be used as a newbie friendly tool to help build the community. Currently the mention of boundaries brings upon the wrath of the forum, and this is just wrong.

                  -Aaron

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                    Originally posted by What Is Schwa? View Post
                    A PCSP server is the place for the boundaries debate. The public server clearly has them and it should be used as a newbie friendly tool to help build the community. Currently the mention of boundaries brings upon the wrath of the forum, and this is just wrong.
                    The server does not have boundaries. Period.

                    The rules are clear ; the MOTD contains all the basics of PCS.
                    BFCL TF2 league admin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                      Originally posted by Root View Post
                      If a player is unable (or more likely unwilling) to grasp the concept of defending a bombsite or a pair of hostages, then they're not players we want on any TG server.
                      The majority of pub players think they are defending a bombsite by eliminating the opposing team. That concept has been drilled into the heads of the FPS community.

                      Originally posted by Root
                      The same goes for teamwork and communication. These are concepts that the average 10 year old can understand.
                      Maybe on your side of the pond. I'm a little less optomistic regarding my bretheren.

                      I see most players adapted to the standard pub-style and think that is the proper and ONLY way to play CS:S.

                      TG is the minority, and it is absurd to think that every player who has the capacity to enjoy TG will immediatly grasp the finer points, especially when the starting guidelines are vague.

                      Currently, all we give new players is "Your objective is to plant/diffuse/protect." This is the attitude of many TG players towards new players. To a new player all you are doing is echoing the gametype. They don't understand what is really meant because of the constant conditioning of pub play.

                      I feel, as a newbie guideline, it is more helpful to them to ask them to stay within a certain area until they understand the finer points of TG. You seem to be asking every single player who comes to the server to instantly understand what is going on, and I feel that is impossible.

                      -Aaron
                      Last edited by What Is Schwa?; 01-08-2007, 04:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                        Originally posted by Root View Post
                        The server does not have boundaries. Period.

                        The rules are clear ; the MOTD contains all the basics of PCS.
                        And this attitude is why the pub can be such a mess on some days. The rules are clear to you.

                        ...but not to a player who has been conditioned to associate "Completing ANY objective = Killing the entire team."

                        -Aaron

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                          I've personally never slay/kick/banned anyone purely for "boundary violations".

                          I work with newbies that are listening to what we have to offer and are interested in our style of play. I have a ton of patience for those players as we hope to develop them into SM's and eventually PCS class players. The best advice I give new players is in private chat you as regulars never get to see, usually subtle coaching tips regarding playing it conservatively and sticking with someone PCS or an admin on their team until they get the idea.

                          Those boundary issues are the least of my problems when dealing with problematic new players. I won't get into all the behavioral problems with new players, especially around Xmas break and Spring break.

                          Don't assume someone was kicked for boundary issues, I can guaranty there are other more important factors going on in the background if someone was kicked or banned.


                          Years ago we tried the map-overview-red-line-boundaries idea, and it was effective in the beginning but as root said what happened was that players who were only interested in pushing those boundaries kept pushing them and pushing them until they broke. It simply didn't work, you can't sit on the other side of an imaginary line or doorway and complain when you are killed because enemy players aren't allowed to go through there. PCS tactics and boundaries are dynamic and situational, change rapidly if the bomb is down or hossies are on the move.
                          Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
                          Ernest Hemingway, "On the Blue Water," Esquire, April 1936

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                          • #14
                            Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                            Thanks for your response Ghost.

                            Originally posted by GhostintheShell View Post
                            Don't assume someone was kicked for boundary issues, I can guaranty there are other more important factors going on in the background if someone was kicked or banned.
                            I'm not making assumptions regarding to the admins' judgement. I completely support every action made: in all, you guys do a really good job.

                            -Aaron

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: TG: There are no boundaries! Except... there are...

                              To add in here, boundaries also do not help a player learn pcs. PCS is supposed to be about teamwork and objective based play. These things are very hard to teach in a wide aspect. Every person who doesn't understand what that means has to be tutored. This is best done in a one on one or a group of savy players. The people that get this rare oppurtunity, REALLY understand afterwards.

                              If you want to help teach players about PCS, i suggest you work with the PCS or dev team to come up with training games.


                              - -

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