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  • Firefights and aiming tactics

    I've had a few players approach me about the changes hampering their ability to get a good shot off or have a firefight where they seemingly miss everything in their path. At the same time most of the players don't have this issue.

    So I'm writing a few tips for those that don't realize it, what might be happening and how you can adjust what you do in a firefight.

    With the realism mod, when you get hit, it actually does something. Your aim will become less accurate for a second or two while taking bullets and your view shifts in a particular direction (I.E. getting hit in the chest causes your view to pitch up. In the left arm your view moves the left a little bit.)

    What this means when your in a fire fight, you can't just sit and take bullets and expect to win with an instant headshot. Most players expect this to happen. The advantage is placed on the person with a superior position and you have to either find a better position or out maneuver them with teammates or flash's/smokes/HE grenades.

    While aiming, if you are always aiming for the head, you will likely miss everytime. The same effect applies, the head is a very small target and you don't have perfect aim while taking bullets. Those that aim for a chest/mid body shot will have much better results. Patience also plays into this and making your enemy give up his superior position by moving or peaking a look.

    Hopefully this makes enough sense for those you that are thinking, hitboxes are the problem when it's probably this.


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  • #2
    Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

    So is the rule of thumb no longer "aim for the head", as it's now "aim for the torso"?
    The reason I call myself "the village idiot"? Name a teamate I haven't accidently shot yet.
    ----
    Playing as "Nikon", "the_village_idiot", or "villge_idiot"

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    • #3
      Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

      Originally posted by the village idiot View Post
      So is the rule of thumb no longer "aim for the head", as it's now "aim for the torso"?
      For the most part but those that are in that superior position and have a good shot ready, can aim for a headshot and likely be sucessful, it all depends on your position and what your doing.


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      • #4
        Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

        Rule of thumb when firing at an exposed target should always be: "Center Mass"...at least that was what I was taught =P

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        • #5
          Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

          That's cute for face-to-face engagements, but against a darting target, I'd rather do 111 in 1 with a snappy AK and cope with the rare it's-the-server's-fault no-reg then snag a 27 in 1 and then have that guy do something nasty like announce my location to his friends or shoot at me and make me angry and bored because being dead is tedious.

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          • #6
            Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

            Center of mass for finger-on-the-mouse spray is necessary because of the spray patterns.

            The spray isn't truly random. Fire up your own server, set the bullet holes to max, and fire at some walls at close range. Each gun has it's own pattern, but the trend is a certain amount of kick, than evening out.

            As for "The advantage is placed on the person with a superior position" I feel is a bit misleading. I would argue that really the advantage is given to the person who first connects a shot. Twitchyness and a good connection have become even more important than before.

            This works out well for me, but I feel bad for some of the players who are across the pond from the server.

            -Aaron

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            • #7
              Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

              Ditto on that first-shot-wins thing. Not that that's a bad thing. If you get shot in the anywhere, you aren't going to put up much more of a fight during the next two seconds.

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              • #8
                Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                Yeah, I wasn't saying it was a bad thing.

                It just seems like now if you get shot, it is better to retreat and take cover. Kinda cool actually.

                -Aaron

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                • #9
                  Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                  There is some advantage to shooting first but it's not based on twitch at all. It's based on line of fire and your relative comfortability in a current position.

                  In example, If i'm sitting on a corner with sights trained in one area at a doorway, there is a signficant advantage for me when the player comes into the doorway that i'll hit him first and his shots will miss me. This wasn't the case before, as we can all remember if we think hard about it.

                  The only time twitch really becomes an advantage is when you both are moving. Infact I'm seeing players get very good at moving into the right position, dropping into crouch and hitting that trigger at the exact right moment to take the enemy down. Previously you could try to do this and it just didn't matter because bullets didn't do anything except reduce your HP number.


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                  • #10
                    Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                    Originally posted by Vulcan
                    In example, If i'm sitting on a corner with sights trained in one area at a doorway, there is a signficant advantage for me when the player comes into the doorway that i'll hit him first and his shots will miss me.
                    This is an example of the first person to shoot winning.

                    You are right though, as the defender in your scenario is at a severe disadvantage, no matter how good his twitch skills are.

                    -Aaron

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                    • #11
                      Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                      Originally posted by What Is Schwa? View Post
                      This is an example of the first person to shoot winning.

                      You are right though, as the defender in your scenario is at a severe disadvantage, no matter how good his twitch skills are.

                      -Aaron
                      I disagree with this being an example of first to shoot wins. The very philosophy of this idea goes quite far but fails on a tactical degree. While TG strives to maintain a greater degree of realistic game play, it is obvious that many players also mix Counterstrike Source's game play into realistic modes.

                      In Vulcan's example, he has "first strike" advantage. This has nothing to do with the "first shot wins" scenario. The first shot wins scenario affects only a certain number of weapons, which are limited to mostly submachine guns due to their effectiveness, rate of fire, and need for first shots (which for our situation we assume headshots). As you realize, in most cases first shot wins are rare, and most players apply "first strike" rule as a primary means of killing an opponent. This has become the norm not due to first shot wins, but because of the style, game play, skill level, and tactics used to fight. For example, the CTs defend bomb sites, and therefore use positioning to properly respond, scout out, and pick off terrorists. The Terrorists likewise do the same on hostage maps.

                      On the account of getting headshots with weapons in a firefight where both sides are taking shots, is still likely. Knowing spray patterns, or more commonly controlling the spray pattern are easy methods of scoring a headshot under duress. More often than not players on the TG server aim for the head because the headshot is still more valuable than reducing the enemy's accuracy with hits to the chest or arm. Of course not everyone can get head shots so easily as others, but you definitely notice that headshots are favored in TG more so than other servers.

                      The advantage offered by positioning is not first shot wins at all. Its the ability to choose where you hit the opponent, as positioning usually means you see the target first and therefore can choose where you shoot, or you see the target without him seeing you at all. Either situation you control the firefight.

                      If both people knew each other are, then what you get is a situation where the idea is for one to kill the other as fast as possible (headshot). Not to score hits and disrupt aiming. The fact is that most people use waiting methods to get the first strike, and then attempt to follow up on this. If two people were about to meet in an hallway and both heard each other, both opt to either frag/flash each other, run and spray for the headshot, or wait each other out. There is no first hit wins situation here. All other first hit wins situation are merely examples of the target being shot at not knowing where the shots are being fired from, which usually occurs, and therefore results in death.

                      The situation for a head on first to fire wins occurs almost always in a rapid exchange away from a positional "first strike" advantage. This is usually occurs when two players are attempting to engage each other. This means they are moving and are not in what would be called an ideal position. The ideal position always involves cover, and does not include standing around a corner in the hallway. Of course standing directly around the corner still offers a serious surprise advantage for you, but playing against experienced players, they will deal with it accordingly by reducing the surprise simply by changing the speed of movement. This is why some players can take out others in "first strike" positions by either luring (ie sticking their weapon or arm out), using sound movement, or more commonly firing at the dug-in opposition before they have a chance to recognize the enemy, and capitalize on their advantage. This usually results in a headshot, which granted, is tough to pull off. But then this is why many players retreat and attempt to confuse dug in players by changing positions, using grenades, flanking, or picking off their teammates to weaken the strength of the other side's spread.

                      This is exactly why the headshot is the primary means of taking out an opponent, and not first strike. In the situation where two players take up defensive positions, both will have trouble hitting each other and will likely aim for the head because that is usually the most opportune area to attack when a player is using cover. Due to the camera system of where a player actually sees out of, there are a few positions where you can technically place your head behind a low ceiling and still hit an opponent (ie. in a map where there is a slit behind a wall). Of course a rifle can still hit you in the head, and still cause your aim to go all over the place. This would be an issue of players not used to adjusting for aim (when your head is tilted off to the side...but of course this is unfavorable for anyone as they have already taken a hit to the head, and thus its much easier for players to give themselves positional advantages).

                      But positional advantages are nothing new to tactical game play, it is just used more on TG. Thats why you have other servers who ascribe to a more death match style of play, where players "camp" only when necessary, or worse "camping" is frowned upon because players who do so end up racking up many kills as they kill _players before they are discovered_. This killing before being scene method is what is used over the idea that hitting first is guarantees you a high success of winning. Ideally if you hit first and hit them in the head you most likely win. Since we are dealing strictly with a "hit = they cannot return fire properly and thus lose", it likely means you have dealt damage, and players who understand the style of play on TG will retreat to fight another day. Therefore if you are looking to hit first, you absolutely have to hit them multiple times in the chest and or face depending on weapon, to guarantee a kill. This just does not work against higher level players on the TG server.

                      As for rules of thumb:

                      Because it is still a game, always aim for the head (unless your faith in aiming is not so great). A headshot either 1. give you the kill, or 2. give you a 80% at least chance of killing the target reguardless of weapon. This applies to all weapons, especially as their killing power diminishes (non rifles).

                      Because rifles can kill with a burst to the chest (and because people are usually hurt by nades and other firefights), rifles are usually the only weapons you want to use when not aiming for the head. The only other situtation is when you are too far away with a shorter ranged weapon. For all smgs, if you dont start out to hit a target in the head, the idea is to move your aim to the head as you are firing so that your first shots stop him, your follow up shots disrupt him from headshotting you (or so we hope), and your final shots (of those 10-15 bullets, hopefully less) end up killing him.

                      There are a ton of things I didnt mention but the main idea is (if you didnt read half the crap I wrote because I didnt either): The fact that body hits disrupt aim are an addition to your strategies, not the new method of killing people.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                        I read most of it, only skipped some of the examples because i know what your saying for the most part Avs.

                        Mostly it's all situational but people don't realize that their view is changing when they are getting hit and wondering why they just missed what they thought was a perfect headshot.


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                        • #13
                          Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                          I don't have the attention span to read all of that...

                          Just kidding. You make some excellent points. I wish I knew more about how the engine worked so I could understand and contribute to the discussion.
                          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~
                          I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~
                          Feel free to quote me. ~

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                          • #14
                            Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                            Originally posted by AVS
                            The advantage offered by positioning is not first shot wins at all. Its the ability to choose where you hit the opponent, as positioning usually means you see the target first and therefore can choose where you shoot, or you see the target without him seeing you at all. Either situation you control the firefight.
                            The fact that the person to be hit first momentarily loses his ability to accurately return fire is absolutely evidence that "first to hit" wins. The reason this is a good thing is because of all the things you mention: tactical positioning is now an effective strategy.

                            Originally posted by Vulcan's Opening Post
                            I've had a few players approach me about the changes hampering their ability to get a good shot off or have a firefight where they seemingly miss everything in their path
                            The answer here is those players are getting hit first. The changes to the game mechanics need to be mentioned first and upfront, saying it is because they didn't "position themselves tactically" is misleading and unfair.

                            Why are they getting hit first? That's where your post comes in.

                            -Aaron

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                            • #15
                              Re: Firefights and aiming tactics

                              If first to hit wins was a sure fire strategy then you would simply need something like a MP5 to win.

                              My point is, the only time first to hit scenarios apply are when both players know where each other are and are both attempting to kill each other at the same time.

                              Because you are in a defensive position you usually get to attack before the other player knows where you are. This isnt where first to hit applies, this is simply being able to fire before there is even a response or reaction. It just so happens he also loses the ability to aim back. Now if everyone shot at the head, then the distinction between first strike and first to hit are more obvious.

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