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  • Italy Tactik discussion.

    Alright this is pretty much my favorite map that we play. It is best played though when both sides understand strong and weak points of the map. I will explain my strategies that work for both T and CT sides.

    From Terrorist perspective:
    I am a strong believer that if the Counter Terrorists take Apartments/Middle, then all is lost. Honestly, it only requires two people to cover long hall. A scouter and one good rifleman either at the end of the sewer or at the tree. The first time I started this, Gogeta was at the tree and I was scouting from the house. We took out about 2 or 3 at long hall every round unless they all decided to go a different way. And because we have only 2 near house, it allows for the other five members of the team to cover the other areas well. If it was me, I would put one person tree room, two near apartment corner (Maybe even one in that room of the apartment if they are good enough), and then two in middle (Either above the bridge, at the box, or in the wine cellar). If that is the case anyway, then the tree room guy could go down to cellar. Now don't get me wrong, if you need to pull back to the house, then pull back! I am not saying stay out there until you get killed. If your partner goes down, pull back to middle or something. When me and Gogeta did this, we went 7-0 against the cts.

    From Counter Terrorist perspective:
    So, with that strategy being said, I believe that a CT's main objective is to take that apartment corner/tree room/dark room. I have found that if we take tree room quickly, it is a great base of operations for an attack on the house. One reason is that no sane terrorist will go to apartments by himself because there could be many cts there. It is generally easy to capture dark room once you have tree room, just toss a nade or two in there and there you go. Instead of scouting long hall, I have had a much easier time scouting from the apartment corner, but either way is a risk. So, best way to do this strat is to send one or two wine cellar (Although not many people cover it), get two or three to go apartment (One up top, two below), and two going middle (One covering the other as he moves up). Obviously, good communication is required for any decent strategy. So, you must be able to come up with something on the fly. Take your time and see if you can pick off a couple people in the side window. Some people are impatient and poke their heads out. If you are going to go into the house from the boxes, make sure you flash the window, maybe twice.

    As far as long hall is concerned, you don't really need to go that way. But if you must, I have a couple of suggestions. Smoke the hall enough to where they can assume that you are running into the sewer, then run to it but run back, and they will think you went in there. This has happened to me and I ended up freaking out and sending a guy down there when he could have been used somewhere else. Confusion is a great ally of the CTs, as long as the CTs aren't the ones confused.

    Another good thing to try for long hall is smoke only one side of the hall, have one person behind the smoke blind firing the window and have the scouter on the side where the smoke isn't at and scout the house. Cover fire is amazing and should be utilized.


    That's all that I can think of for now. I hope this is a help. I want this map to be as much of a challenge as possible. It is played often and people should know some decent strategies. If you have any other points to make, feel free to post it.
    "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
    "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump







  • #2
    Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

    I personally like to keep the defense tight. If we have to have people at the tree house/apartments, I think they should fall back right after they pick of the first CT or the CT's start putting pressure on you. Besides, you can control nearly all the entrances even when you pull back, the only tough spot is the stairs. Though I do agree that against most strategies you need to hold the outer areas for atleast the first steps of the match.

    For the CTs, The best way to break defenses is to push through from one spot. As soon as the defense is cracked, the Ts usually "collapse" for a while after a CT gets into the house or manages to pick someone off, and this is one of the most crucial moments that most people never realise. Every T will fall back to get a slice of the action or to back up their allies, and pushing up close as well as nading the few spots that can be naded will do a lot of damage to the defence. At this point falling back to pick off enemies trying to compensate for the crack in the defense is one option, or you can push even harder. It all depends on the team. Some people are better at picking people off from a distance, while others like to get personal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

      Originally posted by Potshot View Post
      I personally like to keep the defense tight. If we have to have people at the tree house/apartments, I think they should fall back right after they pick of the first CT or the CT's start putting pressure on you. Besides, you can control nearly all the entrances even when you pull back, the only tough spot is the stairs. Though I do agree that against most strategies you need to hold the outer areas for atleast the first steps of the match.
      A tight defense can be good at times, and so can mine. You can't always do what I suggest, but most of the time it does work.

      The problem with having everyone in the house is that they aren't doing anything and get in the way. If I am sniping, I want the whole upstairs to myself. I don't want people blocking me if I need to get to a certain position such as the balchony or the side window. Everytime I see a tight defense, I also see three people dying from one grenade. It gets too cluttered and hard to work with your team. Also, if you are all in the same spot, it's a bit difficult to communicate because you are all right there seeing the same things.

      I think what most people will think the problem with my strategy is that everyone will die away from the house and get nothing accomplished. While that is sometimes the case, it really depends on the person. You should be able to put yourself in a position where if you get hit, you aren't out in the open. A soldier with a little health is better than one with none. Some people need to remember that.

      I personally, can not work well when I have three other people near me. So, when we are all in or near the house, I end up dying first. The strategy I stated works well with good communication, people who don't mind pulling back, and giving up getting a kill if needed (Which is sort of the point anyway, not kill hunting).
      "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
      "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump






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      • #4
        Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

        I'll side with potshot.

        Given a map as concentrated as Italy, I'd be a big proponent of a very, very tight defense.

        Keep everyone in the house in a position to guard the three entrances, (front door, sewer, boxes window), and there's no way for them to get in.

        They can flash, but if you keep people at proper angles and call the flashes as soon as they happen so someone can flip over to cover you a well organized team can repel the opposition every time - as long as they're patient enough not to peek out.

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        • #5
          Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

          If you have two people at long hall window and the balcony, they've already got 2 entrances covered. Then you have one at the other window, mainly watching stairs but being ready to nade the dark room when needed. One near or in the sewers, ready to jump out when someone calls enemies in there. Then you have one as a distraction at the main entrance, who will peek out and fire a shot or two as soon as the sniper on the balcony asks for it. That's five people. The other two should be out farther, and then back up when under pressure to be reinforcements if someone falls within the house. This doesn't guarantee victory, but it keeps the enemies at longer ranges so they can't nade important areas. If the enemy gets close, you should try to flank them. If they get in from the main entrance, drop of the balcony and come behind him. If they get in through the window, or have it covered, nade the corner of the house or if you think it's safe enough to jump out and run up to them, do it.

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          • #6
            Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

            As I stated before, those people up top are all going to get hit with one grenade. I don't see how letting them get so close to the hostages without so much as a fight is a good strategy. They could all rush in at once from mid, take out the guy in the window, and rush through the front door killing everyone as long as they watch their flank. Close combat isn't a good idea when there is plenty of open space you can take them out in.
            "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
            "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump






            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

              First of all, rushes are hard to repel on most maps, and Italy Tactik is one of them. Second, if you have the defense set up as I explained, the only spot you could get close enough to nade is the upper hostie room, and even then the only available option is a flash. If you have one of the "floaters" near or on the stairs, he'll be able to quickly take over. I've thought it out and tested it on a few occasions, the only real weakness in it is the hostie room window, and even then it's not a very critical one. Of course, there's always human error, but we can't really change that, now can we?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                Both are valid tactics. I will leave my comments at that.
                "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
                "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump






                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                  Played the map for the first time last night and my computer frozze on me 10 mins into the map :( but from what I saw it now my new FAV map. Just dont nade the hosties!!
                  |TG| Plude220

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                  • #10
                    Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                    Originally posted by Clefspeare View Post
                    From Terrorist perspective:
                    ...it only requires two people to cover long hall. A scouter and one good rifleman either at the end of the sewer or at the tree.
                    I would almost recommend in the sewer. They throw in a few smokes and they have entry to the sewer. Then you have to worry about that avenue. Granted, if you are always in the sewer entrance, your success rate will go down as the attacks adapt. So you do need to move periodically. A few smokes might result in you HEing or rushing at them (or maybe even just sneaking in behind them).
                    Originally posted by Clefspeare View Post
                    If it was me, I would put one person tree room, two near apartment corner (Maybe even one in that room of the apartment if they are good enough),
                    CURSE YOU TEXAS OIL! :row__572:

                    Originally posted by Clefspeare View Post
                    From Counter Terrorist perspective:
                    One reason is that no sane terrorist will go to apartments by himself because there could be many cts there.
                    a-hem...
                    CURSE YOU TEXAS OIL! :row__572:

                    The apartment crew must clear each room. Either use up flashes or just hope you waste him (if he is there) first. The group moving toward the wine cellar must watch the wine celler entrance/exit (both the door and window), the bridge to the apartments and the apartment window itself. The best method (IMO) is to wait until the apartment group has cleared to the bridge, then you can focus on one threat point.

                    Then the 3 move through the wine cellar. Assuming you make it to the tree room lower entrance, both groups can breach at the same time. The worry is that a T might be at middle or up IN the tree room and ready to throw a HE down into the wine cellar entrance just as your group reaches that point (or even drop down and attack).

                    Originally posted by Clefspeare View Post
                    Another good thing to try for long hall is smoke only one side of the hall, have one person behind the smoke blind firing the window and have the scouter on the side where the smoke isn't at and scout the house. Cover fire is amazing and should be utilized.
                    Excellent idea.
                    "Sympathy means a lot, coming from Kulmar. I didn't think it was possible.
                    Good luck getting rid of your disease. If you're infected, though, stay away--I can't afford to be a zombie right now.
                    " Ednos


                    sigpic




                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                      Lets just add one more thing. Terrorists WILL NOT LOOSE if there all in the house. The best offense is a good defense. Lets say its a 5 man team. You have a scouter cover long hall. You have one guy on the stairs in the house covering the window by the boxes. You have two covering front door and then one in sewers. The only one that should be poking there head out is the scouter. If you do that you are bound to win. Say you have 4 you just take on off of front door. Say you have 6 you have one person watching tree room from the corner of the window. if you have 7 Maybe, MAYBE you can send one guy out to call how many are in apartments or mid but thats all. If you follow that the terrorists will win.

                      Counter Terrorists There is one way that you can counter this and that is a communication movement. Say you have five. You have 3 push up to the front door and 2 stay back in mid. The two in the front door flash and try to take out one or two to get the attention away from everyone else. Then the two in mid move up to the boxes and flash in and jump in and take them out. If your lucky you'll win but you have to worry about the guy in sewers he can easily pull of a flank.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                        We played italy standard last night and the same rules apply.

                        The terrorists were getting torn up until I had them all hole up inside the house. Nades help quite a bit here.

                        Oh, and I was going to Grammar Nazi fasty's post... but reading it killed some part of my soul and I just can't seem to conjure up the effort anymore. Thanks for destroying my spirit.

                        'there'/'their'/'they're'... 'lose'/'loose'... it's all too much to take.

                        Does anybody know a good apothecary?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                          Originally posted by .tritone. View Post
                          Oh, and I was going to Grammar Nazi fasty's post... but reading it killed some part of my soul and I just can't seem to conjure up the effort anymore. Thanks for destroying my spirit.
                          Fasty is to spelling and grammar as Sparhawkxx is to typing even close to the right word.

                          Back on topic, Terrorists can play further out if they're better shots, but the Counter-Terrorists do have the advantage of better positions (even when it comes to the apartments) when it comes down to it. Even minimal communication on the Counter-Terrorist team will allow, if they aren't outgunned, domination of all areas outside of the house.
                          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~
                          I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~
                          Feel free to quote me. ~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                            I still stick with my strategy that sticking in the house is not the best idea. One can hold mid, two apartment corner. Couple of well played possibilities for the scouter as a t are: Snipe long hall (although this general is a waste of the scout) or you can scout the apartment corner through the sliver in the window while a rifle covers long hall from the same window. That second one worked very well on that night that Tritone speaks of. I believe the only reason us holing up in the house even worked that time was because of lack of communication and skill by those who were covering apartment/mid. As I have said before, it highly depends on who you have on your team.
                            "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
                            "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump






                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Italy Tactik discussion.

                              Originally posted by Dr.FAsTy
                              Your such an <bleeped for TG's G ratedness> Be nice once in a while in this <Bleeped for TG's G ratendness> forums
                              Okay, seriously. If you're ever going to have a job in an English speaking country you're probably going to want to learn how to write properly. I know this isn't the place, but...

                              "Your" is possessive - as in "This is YOUR hat."
                              "You're" is a contraction for "you are" - as in "YOU'RE such a pain in my ass."

                              Help raise the collective IQ of the internet by adhering to these simple rules!
                              __________________________________________________ ______________


                              And Clef -
                              Holing up in the house is damn near 100% effective. With a full squad of 7 people you should have no trouble holding the CTs off.

                              :: 1 :: First man is upstairs, watching the boxes window from the side, (NOT looking out of the window to get shot from mid/apartment/darkroom/your mom's house). If somebody tries to crawl through the window you'll see their gun long before they get in far enough to see you. Make sure this guy has a full set of nades to bounce off of the window sill and onto the guys hopping onto boxes or creeping around the side of the house. I'm usually here as it's also a really good captain's position to keep an eye on radar and move the men to better positions if a few go down considering the relative safety of the spot, the ability to hear very well what is happening outside, and the quickness with which you can get to all of the other positions. I've gotten 4 nade kills (2 double-kills) from this spot in a single round. This person can also be naded from the long hall/front door area so it's a good idea to stay on the window side of pillar. Usually they'll be nading for the scouter, so in my experience it'll take 2 or 3 splashes of nades to kill you anyway unless they bounce it right into your corner (which they probably shouldn't be doing b/c it will probably hurt the hostages. If you're the last one left, this is where you should be, (unless, of course, the opfor has read this writeup...). If they grab the bottom floor you can either flash down the stairs and take them out, hop down into front door to flank, or quickly watch the escape routes (long hall, apartments, mid stairs). Also, you're going to want to resist the urge to toss your flashes out the window if you hear them hopping on boxes. You'll be glad to have them if you need to toss a flash downstairs when they try to grab the bottom set. Preferred weapon : Krieg, full set of nades

                              :: 2 :: Second man is on the stairs looking at front door (and sewer if the 3rd man goes down). If the upstairs gets flashed they can quickly pop up and blast into the window as it takes at least a few seconds to hop onto the sill and crawl through into the upstairs. If he gets flashed either from the top window or front door he can quickly retreat up the stairs and flash back down into the bottom set to regain control.

                              :: 3 :: Third man is behind the boxes downstairs, watching the sewer entrance from a position that they won't get flashed by a banger tossed from front door. This way, if the downstairs gets flashed they won't be impacted and can pop out to watch the front door corner if they start taking fire. If they get flashed from sewers, it is very easy for one of the other men downstairs (particularly #2) to put their crosshairs on the top of the ladder. The reason this person isn't in the sewers (where it's a much easier kill looking down the long corridor) is that he would be of no assistance to the rest of the house if he is 50 yards away in the sewer.

                              :: 4 :: Fourth man is in the front door hallway, at the far back corner where it connects to the bottom set room. They should be half in/half out so they can see the doorway but aren't standing right in the middle of the hall. If they get flashed, they should immediately call "Flashed at front door" and pull back into the first set. There should be three other people downstairs ready to cover them and deliver retaliatory flashbangs.

                              :: 5 :: Fifth man is placed at the top floor w/scout to alternate between long hall and apartment corner (or just stay on apartment corner). This man CAN get fragged, but it's a necessary risk. If they go down I wouldn't recommend picking up the scout as the other positions are much more important and you don't want to lose other men in an unnecessary scout-off. Also note that this man is put as #5, meaning that 1-4 are MORE important than this position. It's a nice-to-have, but you don't need someone scouting and it's more important to keep a lockdown on the entrances than have somebody putting themselves at risk trying to pick people off when they can get shot, naded, stabbed, emulsified, etc from MANY different angles. Preferred weapon : scout. Duh.

                              :: 6 :: Sixth man is downstairs right next to the stairs, (not on the steps, but right in front of them so they're not in the way of the 2nd man), ready to swap with the fourth man if he gets flashed from front door. If the fourth man is flashed, he must immediately call it and pull back into the first set. The sixth man will stay in position while #4 falls back. Do NOT just go running into the hallway to get kills. Preferably, throw a flash of your own into that hallway to stop their advance. If possible, take that opportunity peek out and blast anybody found blinded in the hallway to regain control of front door. #4 can then move back to their original position.

                              :: 7 :: The last man is upstairs sitting on/behind the radio, or where the radio used to be before they blew it up. They should be the first person to shoot the unfortunate bugger trying to crawl through the window without flashing first. This spot is especially suck because you're #1) using hostages as meat shields, #2) a straight shot and easy kill for whoever hops on the window, and #3 you can quite easily get stuck in that corner, especially if you're trying to balance on the radio/table. It might take a second or two of shifting about to get out of the corner which could mean disaster for your domepeice. If I was going to have anybody post outside the house, this would be the man I'd send to do it.

                              The only thing I really haven't mentioned is smoke. If they smoke the hell out of the house, just keep your crossfires trained on the corners and wait for a man to pop up on your radar. When they do you can either blow them kisses or blow their head off - your choice.

                              The most important thing with this formation is, *GASP*, communication. If you get flashed you need to immediately tell your team via voice comms. Of course you can't hear or see anything, but your team will hear you call out "I'm flashed upstairs/front door/etc" and the appropriate person can move forward to cover you while you pull back and/or kill the advancing CTs. Oh, and for the love of god buy your flashbangs.

                              Also - given you won't always have a full team I've number the positions from the most important to the least. Four man squad should be at positions 1-4, five man squad at positions 1-5, etc. The only exception is that if you can't afford a rifle you should skip #5 in leui of #6.

                              I challenge anybody to provide a scenario that'll let the CTs get a single set of hosties out of the house. I can pretty much guarantee that it'll have the word "rush" in there, somewhere. This formation, or a very close variation thereof, is what helped us win every single round on italy during the tournament. Bullpup tested, M4 approved.

                              This formation provides for multiple levels of support so it takes more than a single volley of flashes to break all the way through, especially in the case of front door. They would have to flash through front door, then have a second man run into the hallway and toss another flash into the bottom set. The top window is the same as there are multiple people upstairs to nail the person crawling through the window. Sewer entrance is yucky b/c it involves a ladder and your team is stacked up in the tiny corridor.

                              I'd tell you the best way to attack and extract hosties from here, but I'm not about to give away ALL of my secrets. I will say that the biggest problem with this formation is a fidgety terrorist team. People ALWAYS want to push out into apartments, sewer to the front of long hall, cellar, etc and HATE being told to sit and wait inside the house. It's boring as hell for the first minute or two while the CTs make their careful approach to the house. Sorry, but this is simply the most effective way to succeed as a terrorist on this map. At the very most, I'd allow the seventh man to push up somewhere and attempt to do some damage. Everybody else will have to sit and be bored. Don't like it? That's what pubs are for. Deal with it.
                              Last edited by .tritone.; 12-31-2007, 02:56 PM.

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