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  • #31
    Re: Map Boundaries???

    Originally posted by Pokerface
    I propose a gentleman's agreement then: once the CTs have the hostages in tow, no more shooting/knifing until the round ends with their rescue. Since the Ts have failed their objective, it would seem only fair to let the CTs win at that point.
    What are you on about? Once the CT's have the hostages in tow, the original point is moot as the 'board' is open - the T's can go _anywhere_.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Map Boundaries???

      Originally posted by tekunogekai
      I think that if the only "objective" of the terrorists was to keep the CT's from hitting E in front of the hostages, then the round would end with the CT's victorious the second they did so.
      What you are describing is the ideal outcome for the Ts on italy. Your goal on a TG server is to prevent the CTs from ever reaching the hostages.

      It's simply not OK to win the round by allowing the hostages to be rescued and then kill off the CTs on their way back. I would think one of the best reasons for this is that if you let the CTs grab the hostages, they get money even if you end up winning the round by killing them on the way back.

      Plus, who's to say your "ambush" will be successful? It's a lot more risky to rush their spawn and camp than it is to just stay in the hostage area where you have more places to hide, and more backup available close by. It's simply easier overall to defend the house. Why make things harder on yourself and more importantly your team? Don't forget how many of your teammates' lives can be saved if you're around to back them up instead of being on the other side of the map when they need you. Also, it's not cool to make your teammates buy new guns every round because you had to be the hero.

      The only reason a T should be in CT spawn on italy is if the Ts know the hostages have been grabbed, and the CTs are on the way back to their spawn, and the fastest way to stop them is to beat them back to their spawn and catch them on the way in.

      This does not, however, mean that you should camp near the apartments every round and wait for your team to shout "They've got the hostages!" just so you can rush the CT spawn and "ambush" them.
      Please allow me to adjust my pants
      So that I may dance the Good Time Dance
      And put the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance

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      • #33
        Re: Map Boundaries???

        Originally posted by Gooshy
        What are you on about? Once the CT's have the hostages in tow, the original point is moot as the 'board' is open - the T's can go _anywhere_.
        His point is that the objective isn't to keep the hostages in the apartment, but rather to keep them out of CT spawn.

        I see his point. However, if you're going to argue to change something (his request for the agreement was driving a point more than it was sincere -- he really loves shooting things), it should be the FAQ before the gameplay, as the FAQ clearly lays out what is expected:

        If you are the defensive team, it is your JOB to guard either the bomb point or hostages.
        He's arguing that your JOB shouldn't be to guard the hostages, but rather to prevent them from being rescued. That difference can prove significant given the right circumstances.

        If our "objective" as Ts is to "guard the hostages," why are we free to go "_anywhere_" once the CTs touch the hostages? The answer, of course, if because our "objective" was never at all to "guard the hostages." Our "objective" as Ts is to prevent the hostages from being rescued..

        It goes to the heart of what he was saying ealier... the impasse. On cs_ maps, Ts have only a responsive objective. For CTs, "rescue the hostages" leaves little room for misinterpretation. Ts don't enjoy the same luxury.

        In the right light (not what the hammers today call PCS), a T sitting under the apartment window has a pretty damn good chance (some would argue 50%, removing non-variable factors) of success in preventing the CTs from completing the only proactive objective on the map, which is not "to reach the hostages." Some would argue rather effectively that a T can be very effective from under the apartment window in his effort to "prevent the CTs from rescuing the hostages."

        This perhaps is solved by making in crystal clear, plainly IN THE FAQ, that responsive (a la defensive) teams have cascading objectives... not just one objective. That is, Ts "guard the hostages" unless and until they're moving, at which point (and only at which point) their objective CHANGES to "prevent the hostages from being rescued." The same would go for CTs... 1) prevent the bomb from being planted ... 2) defuse bomb.

        Yes, the above seems obvious... but... if it's that simple.. what's the harm in writing it down?

        Wouldn't it be nice to find something that's ALWAYS true and WRITE IT DOWN? lol :)
        Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

        Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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        • #34
          Re: Map Boundaries???

          mos def agreed
          We are the music makers,
          and we are the dreamers of the dream.
          Wandering by lone sea breakers,
          and sitting by desolate streams.
          World losers and world forsakers,
          for whom the pale moon gleams.
          Yet we are movers and the shakers of the world forever it seems.

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          • #35
            Re: Map Boundaries???

            Originally posted by Samurai
            What you are describing is the ideal outcome for the Ts on italy. Your goal on a TG server is to prevent the CTs from ever reaching the hostages.
            No, I'm describing the ideal outcome for the CT's.

            It's simply not OK to win the round by allowing the hostages to be rescued and then kill off the CTs on their way back. I would think one of the best reasons for this is that if you let the CTs grab the hostages, they get money even if you end up winning the round by killing them on the way back.
            *sigh* The hostages are -not- rescued until they're at the rescue point. Otherwise by "using" the hostages, the CT's would win the round.

            Plus, who's to say your "ambush" will be successful? It's a lot more risky to rush their spawn and camp than it is to just stay in the hostage area where you have more places to hide, and more backup available close by. It's simply easier overall to defend the house. Why make things harder on yourself and more importantly your team? Don't forget how many of your teammates' lives can be saved if you're around to back them up instead of being on the other side of the map when they need you. Also, it's not cool to make your teammates buy new guns every round because you had to be the hero.
            You're missing my entire point, which is moot now anyhow. I can't say the ambush would be successful. The ambush team wouldn't rush their spawn, as that is blatantly against the rules. It's by no means easier to defend the house than to catch the CT's off guard, and heroes are illegal. As for not being there for the team, read my point about the apt. exit perch.

            "The only reason a T should be in CT spawn on italy is if the Ts know the hostages have been grabbed, and the CTs are on the way back to their spawn, and the fastest way to stop them is to beat them back to their spawn and catch them on the way in."
            The logic of this is completely flawed. If the CT's are on the way to the rescue point with the hostages, it is impossible to legally catch up without speedhacks. Thus, why not have players where they can intercept them once the team announces that the CT's have the hostages? If the rules state that players who aren't in the immediate vicinity of the hostages are required (by definition of teamwork) to come for the hostages once informed that they are in danger of being rescued, then the players camping middle (the only currently legal place from which you can beat the CT's to their spawn, and this is only if the CT's exit tunnel) are required to go to the house.

            This does not, however, mean that you should camp near the apartments every round and wait for your team to shout "They've got the hostages!" just so you can rush the CT spawn and "ambush" them.
            It's all about communication. If you're at the apt. window and someone says, "Oh holy Jesus, they're all coming tunnel." Then you go tunnel, where you'll be behind them with a greater chance of stopping the assault. If you hear a teammate say, "They've got the hosties and are going out cellar-side," then you're only a short run away from cutting them off on the way to the rescue point.

            The administration is already against my idea, so I'm no longer going to campaign. I'm now simply being argumentative, as my point is sound whether it's to be taken into further consideration or not. The CT's might as well be given the win if they get to the hostages, as I have proven that players playing by the rules can not catch up with them if they get them out of the house.

            To say that my idea opposes the rules is to say that jumping off of the ledge connected to the house to enter the bottom floor and come up behind the CT's as they "use" the hostages is illegal: you're now letting them rescue (by common belief and incorrect use of the term) the hostages. Anyone in their right mind has done this at some point. As the current set of rules is going to continue being just that, I agree with whoever posted earlier that an honor system should be installed so that the shooting ceases as soon as the CT's can lead the hostages to safety.

            Actually, I take that back. There are many talented mappers in this community, so Italy should be modified to be a VIP map. As soon as the VIP gets to the radio, the round ends.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Map Boundaries???

              Originally posted by Wyzcrak
              Tek is right. I'm locking this thread now, and let his theories and motives never be questioned again.
              omg omg! <3 Wyz! :D

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Map Boundaries???

                Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                This perhaps is solved by making in crystal clear, plainly IN THE FAQ, that responsive (a la defensive) teams have cascading objectives... not just one objective. That is, Ts "guard the hostages" unless and until they're moving, at which point (and only at which point) their objective CHANGES to "prevent the hostages from being rescued." The same would go for CTs... 1) prevent the bomb from being planted ... 2) defuse bomb.

                Yes, the above seems obvious... but... if it's that simple.. what's the harm in writing it down?

                Wouldn't it be nice to find something that's ALWAYS true and WRITE IT DOWN? lol :)
                Best point to come out of this discussion...

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                • #38
                  Re: Map Boundaries???

                  Originally posted by tekunogekai
                  The logic of this is completely flawed. If the CT's are on the way to the rescue point with the hostages, it is impossible to legally catch up without speedhacks.
                  Impossible? Au contraire, it depends on what sort of risks the CT is will to take; if he stays with his rifle, he's catchable - I've done it. If he makes a single mistake, like-wise. If he maneuvers to free up a stuck hostie, ditto. No, the logic is fine, and it's perfectly possible. If he switches to knife, doesn't worry about getting a hostie stuck, doesn't worry about making noise, he's going to be _nearly_ impossible to catch, but vulnerable.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Map Boundaries???

                    Italy is a pretty easy map on which to navigate the hostages. I've only gotten one stuck once in CS:S (on the tree in the tunnel). For office, on the other hand, you have a point.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Map Boundaries???

                      Originally posted by tekunogekai
                      Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                      Tek is right. I'm locking this thread now, and let his theories and motives never be questioned again.
                      omg omg! <3 Wyz! :D
                      lol @ that, I must say.

                      hacker.
                      Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                      Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Map Boundaries???

                        wtf!? Oh, it's on.

                        You going to be on the NS server tonight BTW? You'd better be. I've got a new trick up my sleeve.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Map Boundaries???

                          Yes, I will. Many captains games tonight, I hope.

                          Bring it, Sally.
                          Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                          Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Map Boundaries???

                            Originally posted by tekunogekai
                            No, I'm describing the ideal outcome for the CT's.
                            No, you weren't. The ideal outcome for the Ts is for the CTs to never even get into the hostage house in the first place.


                            *sigh* The hostages are -not- rescued until they're at the rescue point. Otherwise by "using" the hostages, the CT's would win the round.
                            Stop splitting hairs. You know what I meant and this thread is not about your definition of what "rescued" means.

                            For the purposes of the rest of this thread, I'll use the term "rescue" as you interpret it, and I'll use "capture" when I refer to the CTs pressing the Use key in front of a hostage.


                            You're missing my entire point, which is moot now anyhow. I can't say the ambush would be successful.
                            Stop right there. Right there you're admitting that your "ambush tactic" is flawed. Nothing else needs to be said about it.

                            The ambush team wouldn't rush their spawn, as that is blatantly against the rules.
                            Nobody ever said "rush the CT spawn" as in "rush the CT spawn at the very beginning of the round. In this thread "rush the CT spawn" means "running to the CT spawn to cut off their rescue attempt after they capture the hostages."

                            It's by no means easier to defend the house than to catch the CT's off guard
                            All I can say here is that you're an idiot. How is it more difficult to take up defensive positions near your other teammates, in cover, near the place where the CTs are headed? Why bother going to their spawn for an ambush when you can just set up an ambush around the place the CTs have to go before they can head back to their spawn? That makes no sense to me.

                            The logic of this is completely flawed.
                            AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

                            Take a logic class.

                            If the CT's are on the way to the rescue point with the hostages, it is impossible to legally catch up without speedhacks.
                            There are at least 2 things wrong with this....

                            1 - You are talking about italy and only italy. How many maps are in the rotation these days? There are plenty of maps where the Ts can take a separate route from the CTs and get to the CT spawn before the CTs do.

                            2 - If I'm guarding the exit from the apartment on the T side (like on the T side of the railing part of the bridge), I can easily beat a CT to their spawn from there if they are running down the long hall route toward the market. I don't even have to be inside the apartment at all to make it there faster.

                            Thus, why not have players where they can intercept them once the team announces that the CT's have the hostages?
                            Because then those players in an "intercept" position are:

                            1 - NOT in a position to back up their team and help keep them alive.

                            2 - NOT in an ideal position to help stop the CTs from ever getting to the hostages in the first place, which is the whole point you keep missing.

                            3 - NOT in a position where the rest of the team can easily back them up if they need it.

                            4 - NOT in a position where the rest of the team can back them up without leaving the hostages unguarded, which again, is the whole point you seem to keep missing.

                            If the rules state that players who aren't in the immediate vicinity of the hostages are required (by definition of teamwork) to come for the hostages once informed that they are in danger of being rescued, then the players camping middle (the only currently legal place from which you can beat the CT's to their spawn, and this is only if the CT's exit tunnel) are required to go to the house.
                            The rules do not state that if you are camping inside the apartment, and the hostages get captured by the CTs, that you have to fall back to the house first and then chase the CTs to their spawn. That would be pointless.

                            And again, you are talking about italy only, and there are a lot of maps where it is very easy for the Ts, in a defensive position (which IS spelled out clearly in the rules), can beat the CTs back to their spawn without resorting to camping in the middle of the map.

                            It's all about communication. If you're at the apt. window and someone says, "Oh holy Jesus, they're all coming tunnel." Then you go tunnel, where you'll be behind them with a greater chance of stopping the assault. If you hear a teammate say, "They've got the hosties and are going out cellar-side," then you're only a short run away from cutting them off on the way to the rescue point.
                            Again, if the Ts are doing their job and defending the hostages, the Ts will never need to do this. It is much MUCH easier to kill all the CTs while they're on the way TO the hostages than it is to chase them down after letting them slip through the defenses.

                            The administration is already against my idea, so I'm no longer going to campaign. I'm now simply being argumentative, as my point is sound whether it's to be taken into further consideration or not.
                            What you describe is a good strategy, and I agree that it can be an effective one. I too have seen it work countless times on other servers.

                            Unfortunately it's not legal here.

                            The CT's might as well be given the win if they get to the hostages,
                            Why? Why shouldn't they still have to get them back to their spawn? Getting to the hostages and capturing them is only part of the CT objective.

                            as I have proven that players playing by the rules can not catch up with them if they get them out of the house.
                            You have "proven" nothing. I see nothing in your argument that even remotely resembles an irrefutable statement. You've provided evidence, nothing more, and that evidence is flawed and it only counts as "proof" because you claim it does.

                            To say that my idea opposes the rules is to say that jumping off of the ledge connected to the house to enter the bottom floor and come up behind the CT's as they "use" the hostages is illegal:
                            Please explain EXACTLY how this is against the rules. That platform is part of the hostage house, and a perfectly legal place for a terrorist to be.

                            you're now letting them rescue (by common belief and incorrect
                            The term "rescue" can be interpreted a few different ways. Your interpretation is not the only one. Don't be condescending.

                            use of the term) the hostages. Anyone in their right mind has done this at some point. As the current set of rules is going to continue being just that, I agree with whoever posted earlier that an honor system should be installed so that the shooting ceases as soon as the CT's can lead the hostages to safety.
                            I can still use my knife, can't I?

                            I'm predicting that you'll miss the humor in that statement.

                            Actually, I take that back. There are many talented mappers in this community, so Italy should be modified to be a VIP map. As soon as the VIP gets to the radio, the round ends.
                            But it's not a VIP map, it's a hostage map, and we have rules for hostage maps. Like I told you, your idea is not a new one, and it IS a good one. It's just illegal here. The reason is that it's not OK to let the CTs capture the hostages under any circumstances, much less rescue them. Don't even let the CTs get into the hostage house in the first place.

                            If that reasoning is not good enough for you, then disconnect whenever italy comes up in rotation. The rest of us will be having a good time playing within the rules that have been set. Which is the way we like it.

                            BTW, I like your idea about making a VIP version of italy. I think that would be really fun to play.
                            Please allow me to adjust my pants
                            So that I may dance the Good Time Dance
                            And put the onlookers and innocent bystanders into a trance

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                            • #44
                              Re: Map Boundaries???

                              Originally posted by Samurai
                              All I can say here is that you're an idiot.
                              Actually, that's one thing in your post you can't say here.
                              Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                              Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Map Boundaries???

                                Originally posted by Wyzcrak
                                Actually, that's one thing in your post you can't say here.
                                I think he meant "All I can say here is that you've made an idiotic statement."

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