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  • Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

    I like good tactical teamplay as much as the next guy, but I hear this every now and then...

    If you get "pwned" by someone that is "rushing", you screwed up. This is why I dislike boundaries. YOU are responsible for treating every corner as if it could be the one that reveals the enemy. YOU should not be relying on "boundaries" to protect you. We all know that usually the defensive team doesn't go past a certain point, but that doesn't make it a sure thing. Expect the unexpected. Watch your six. And fer crissakes, quit thunderbooting around!

    That said, as an admin, I'll continue to take appropriate action when someone is disrupting our gameplay. This does not mean I won't laugh at you when someone comes up behind you and wipes out your whole team singlehandedly.
    Last edited by Apophis; 02-21-2005, 08:19 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

    If we shouldn't be relying on boundaries to protect us, you shoudn't be kicking/banning for others' ignorance of them, intentional or otherwise.

    If we turn every corner as if there are no boundaries, then someone breaking a boundary is not disrupting our gameplay, and the need for both boundaries and the no-rushing "guideline" are completely nullified.
    [volun2]
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    Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
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    • #3
      Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

      Originally posted by Pokerface
      If we shouldn't be relying on boundaries to protect us, you shoudn't be kicking/banning for others' ignorance of them, intentional or otherwise.

      If we turn every corner as if there are no boundaries, then someone breaking a boundary is not disrupting our gameplay, and the need for both boundaries and the no-rushing "guideline" are completely nullified.
      OMGWTFHESHOULDNTBEARGUINGWITHMEHERE!!!1!!!

      Heh... I didn't start this thread so we could debate the TG Counter-Strike rules. I started it in the tactics forum to explain that tactically speaking a rusher shouldn't bother your team.

      And, FYI, I have never kicked or banned anyone for crossing any boundary.

      We've got some new maps that are being designed specifically for our style of play. Imagine a map where the hostages are spread out in a circle around the T spawn in the middle of the map, while the CTs spawn in a large circle around the edge of the map or as a group around random points on the edge of the map. Imagine a de_map where the T spawn in on one side of the map, the CT spawn in the middle and the bombsites on the other side of the map. We're going to see more and more situations where the defensive team is going to have to be more creative in their defense and we'll have maps that will allow them to do so without abandoning their objectives.
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      • #4
        Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

        Tactically speaking, I agree with you wholeheartedly. :)

        Practically speaking, if the tactically speaking part is to win, the expectation of boundaries should be lifted for both teams. If the offense is supposed to be turning every corner like its hot and watching their six, the defense should be able to give them reason to do so.
        [volun2]
        NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
        Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
        <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
        <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

        Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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        • #5
          Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

          Originally posted by Pokerface
          Tactically speaking, I agree with you wholeheartedly. :)

          Practically speaking, if the tactically speaking part is to win, the expectation of boundaries should be lifted for both teams. If the offense is supposed to be turning every corner like its hot and watching their six, the defense should be able to give them reason to do so.
          Soon. Ultimately this is our goal. Right now too many people are hung up on "boundaries" when they should be concetrating on "defense". Things will change in time, and I'm hoping that new maps will help shift people's mindsets...
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          • #6
            Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

            Originally posted by CingularDuality
            Things will change in time
            True enough. Regulars are learning to trust each other. Different folks are doing it at different paces, but it's happening. Players are trusting their teammates, and the opposition, to play PCS.

            Only with this trust will regulars tolerate (and even applaud) other regulars making the moves that our mantras targeted toward new guests say are unacceptable.

            I've sometimes lately been relatively liberal in my instructing (as a team leader and inevitably as an admin) my teammates to take more aggressive defensive flanking positions, especially early in a round (when we're always safe on numbers) or very late in a round (when only one or two of them remain outnumbered). Because I know everyone on my team understands PCS, we are often left without a reason to play within the boundaries (is it fair to stop putting that word in quotes?) we impose on new visitors.
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            Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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            • #7
              Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

              Originally posted by CingularDuality
              Soon. Ultimately this is our goal. Right now too many people are hung up on "boundaries" when they should be concetrating on "defense". Things will change in time, and I'm hoping that new maps will help shift people's mindsets...
              Then soon, when this happens, go ahead and laugh when the offense gets wiped from behind. Until then, ban the rushing mofo. :)
              [volun2]
              NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
              Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
              <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
              <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

              Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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              • #8
                Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                Cingular's post is is excellent and I agree completely, but please note that it isn't directed at the defensive team but the offensive team. If I may paraphrase, speaking to the offense: the boundaries aren't there to protect you. Even if they were you couldn't count on admins being able to type commands that fast. If your team is careful and works together, you should take out the rushers no problem. This is the best way to get across the idea to the rusher that he should stay back and play defense. It's even better than admin actions. On the other hand, if you let a rusher succeed by rushing, it's awfully hard for an admin to convince him that he did something wrong. We will still try, of course.

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                • #9
                  Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                  Originally posted by RandomGuy
                  if you let a rusher succeed by rushing, it's awfully hard for an admin to convince him that he did something wrong.
                  mmmmmm... swirl that around in your glass for a moment before you savor it.... great point.
                  Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

                  Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                    Most cases i have seen, somebody who comes from behind has abandoned their objective. Isn't that really what rushing is about? The grey areas of certain maps can be hammered into a certain line.

                    I like the fact that alot of people are expecting to have no boundaries on a new map that's built for PCS, cuz that's exactly what your gonna get!


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                    • #11
                      Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                      Originally posted by Vulcan
                      Most cases i have seen, somebody who comes from behind has abandoned their objective. Isn't that really what rushing is about? The grey areas of certain maps can be hammered into a certain line.
                      What if the defensive team decides that they want a "scout" or a LP/OP out away from their defensive perimeter just to find out which direction the attack is going to come from? Still an excellent defensive tactic and once the assault is initiated, why not have that LP/OP come up the rear of the attacking force?

                      I'm NOT suggesting that "the best defense is a good offense", but there are other tactics that are very valid that will violate the traditional boundaries that so many players have gotten hung up on here.

                      To clarify, our playstyle is not about boundaries. It's about teamwork and objectives. The boundaries that we generally stay within are merely the normal limits from which we try to demonstrate our playstyle to new players. They are guidelines (crutches) to explain where a defense should normally be, not inflexible rules that are not to be broken.

                      BTW, where's Berzerker?
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                      • #12
                        Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                        indeed cing, maybe you misread my post? abandoning the objective is what is out of bounds. If somebody scouting follows through the plan and eventual security of the objective then it's perfectly normal. That's a must for the map i'm building is what i'm getting at!


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                        • #13
                          Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                          The part about those who abandon objectives and rush is a sore subject. It is a pain in the butt when you have 1 or two people who flank the entire offensive team and wipe them out, but on the same hand, you should try coming and playing here when MANY members of the defensive team are abandoning objectives and stating "hey, its CS and you died, quit crying about me pwning you".

                          Its not because we died, its because we want players to understand the objectives here.
                          If it comes down to waiting for rushers in spawn, I have no problems with that. If it comes to watching our six as we move to whatever goal in mind, I still have no problem with that.

                          On the other hand, I will NOT laugh at a team who gets slaughtered by someone who has abandoned an objective. Even if I am on the same team I inform those who have committed such acts the goals and philosophies of TG playstyle. If someone repeatedly refuses to follow through with objectives and/or complains about the rules and/or insults other players for objective abandonment, then may mighty console show them the door, and may it hit them in the ass on the way out.

                          This community cannot grow without new players coming, and they will usually enjoy playing here when they know the rules and reasoning behind PCS.

                          As a general rule of thumb people, when there is a new player on here you should assume the posibility they will rush as if it were any other public server. Take precautions against them, and make sure they understand the guidelines of PCS.
                          "There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who know binary and those who do not. "

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                          • #14
                            Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                            Forgive my antics when i slay rushers, i did not mean to hurt their pride :(

                            ah but it's fun!


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                            • #15
                              Re: Omgwtfheshouldntbethere!!!!!!!

                              I'm not exactly sure why I'm posting a reply, I don't disagree with anything said. The boundaries are crutches for the new people on the server. But I agree with any tactic that stays within reason of completing the objective. I think the entire problem with people rushing solo and whatnot is that it is unrealistic, no one would ever go "Rambo" in reality.

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