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de_penstock, redroom stairs

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  • de_penstock, redroom stairs

    Hello, I am writing this today because I'm interested in the opinions/reasoning on both sides in regards to the front stairs of de_penstock's redroom. It isn't my goal to change anything other than our community's outlook on defensive play. This is merely an example of many such positions that exist just like it.

    In my eyes, the red room is clearly linked to bombsite B. While there is a CT in red room, B is mostly covered. To that end, the "standard" defensive position for red room has typically been:

    1) In red room, on the left waiting to be flashed and naded.
    2) Behind the red room, exposed to scouts.
    3) In the gully next to red room, which tends to leave your team's flank exposed. Also, you're exposed from white room.

    Seeing this, I thought: If one were to move up slightly closer and look around the corner, one could at least get warning and essentially skirmish the red room area. The other spots it's a simple matter of reflexes; who has the best shot (something that I lost in my early twenties). But now, in realistic terms, the objective is being pursued more smartly. Two "steps" to the left, and you're looking at B. Two steps to the right, and you're looking at the intersection leading to middle, probably at the side of a hapless scouter's head. The scouter that is actively trying to kill your team and further HIS objective, mind you.

    Now to me, tactical defense means countering the offense - if a scouter is pushing middle, and we know it, it would be foolish NOT to take such a prime opportunity. Furthermore, as I previously stated, you're only about 3 steps away from the "okay" position. Therefore, the case can't really be made that it is not a defensive position. Also, the case that people aren't "used to it" or "ready for it" feels weak and frankly counter-productive in tactical play.

    That being said, the case HAS been made (to me quite well) that although, in a perfect world, my point has merit, so does the point that we are an OPEN community there for anyone who genuinely wants to play according to our rules. Understandably, such people will look to those who sound or act like they know what they're doing. If these "role models" are engaging in the type of defensive play described above, they may get the wrong idea and generally degrade the enjoyment of every player on the server. This is obviously not what I am looking to do.

    Rather, I simply submit that each individual moment of gameplay on PCS at TG should be SUBJECTIVELY and personally analyzed by each player, and therefore the results should naturally be different. The one common feature of these spots would of course be that the person playing them is furthering their objective. Ask yourself, "if my team goes down on the other bombsite right now, will I have time to react? if *I* go down right now, will my team have time to react? If the bomb suddenly becomes planted, will I have time to react?". If any of these answers are NO, you need to rethink your strategy. If none of them are no.. well then you've got yourself a strong case. Having any kind of "no fly zone" or "boundary" - whatever you want to call it - dumbs down the game and the players. Instead of getting upset that you were shot in a position you weren't expecting, analyze its strengths and weaknesses and TAKE ADVANTAGE! I mean, that's what I was doing when I moved up in red room to start this debate to begin with! Someone pushed up in redroom means you may be able to take white room or the catwalk more easily.

    Here's an image of the room with a couple really crappy paint edits to illustrate what I mean.



    As you can see, position 1 (green) is reduced to 1 angle with no warning of incoming attacks. Position 2, being practically touching position 1, is clearly more advantageous without losing a single bit of defensive merit. In fact, it's more sheltered and at a more ideal range to take advantage of the weapons that typically are used on this map.

    Again, I just want to get some gears cranking in the communal mind of PCS, not rock the boat per se. It's been a while since I took part in TG forums, and I miss it. Let me/us know what you think!
    Last edited by aesop rock; 08-13-2009, 08:09 PM.


    "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

    "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

  • #2
    Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

    In my humble opinion, you're guarding an important choke point there, so I see no issue. You're more vulnerable to grenades (the Terrorists have better places to hide, too), but that's a risk you'll have to evaluate on your own. The weapons note is an excellent observation.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~
    I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~
    Feel free to quote me. ~

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    • #3
      Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

      Yeah it's a good spot but has it's disadvantages as well.


      - -

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      • #4
        Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

        The main disadvantage is the ability to kill me when I'm a terrorist, so I don't like it. Not one bit! LOL

        Well, one thing I like is that is does make the terrorists keep on their toes. The first time someone did this, came out and shot our scouter at middle door area, people were upset. But oh well. We just had to make sure we had a good guard, whatever.
        "Sympathy means a lot, coming from Kulmar. I didn't think it was possible.
        Good luck getting rid of your disease. If you're infected, though, stay away--I can't afford to be a zombie right now.
        " Ednos


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        • #5
          Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

          That position is absolutely crucial with a sniper in the middle. One grenade around the corner, and goodbye Ultima.
          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~
          I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~
          Feel free to quote me. ~

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

            Interesting, It would keep the T's on their toes like skylark suggested.



            When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix

            And isn't it a bad thing to be deceived about the truth, and a good thing to know what the truth is? For I assume that by knowing the truth you mean knowing things as they really are. ~ Plato

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            • #7
              Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

              I personally feel that the spot is fine. You would no longer be able to just rush into B through red room. This is something I have been able to sucessfully do several times as bomber. By having the CT in the stairwell, this would force the T's to slow down and deal with him, telegraphing the plan. Although I don't beleive CT's can get there before T's do. Depending on T's spawn location. A B site rush, if T's spawned in the right position, could most likely force a fight at middle door and from cat's. White room would be the last to respond, because of the ammount of time it takes to get to each location.
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              • #8
                Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

                Well, this is boring, I was hoping for at least a few people to argue with! Just kidding, I'm always happy to see a meeting of the minds. Thanks for the input, those that have posted so far!

                @ Xen: Generally speaking, teams reach their respective 'corners' looking into red room at approximately the same time (CT slightly before T). Getting to the stairs before a rushing T would be a feat, but once again at least this way there is some attention drawn to the area.


                "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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                • #9
                  Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

                  I hate when CT's camp that spot. With my plans I often like to camp my players around entrance points. I would consider that an entrance point of red room, and from there I've been slaughtered at the garage door. In all honesty it takes the fun out of the map.

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                  • #10
                    Re: de_penstock, redroom stairs

                    Camping it and jumping in and out on occasion are two totally different scenarios. Camping it doesn't seem smart to me, you can't pull back as easily.
                    "We can not ensure success, but we can deserve it." - John Adams
                    "Sometimes I guess there just aren't enough rocks." - Forrest Gump






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