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We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

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  • We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

    One of the most common things you hear about SPG's is that they are overpowered. Tons of ppl want to remove us from the game altogether. Let me tell you how I view it frow an artilleryman's perspective.

    - We are not almighty.
    - We can see only what our teammate show us.
    - We CAN blindshot enemies, but that has nothing to do with us being overpowered. Just don't sit in the same spots all the time.
    - We are dead if a Light/Med rushes us.
    - Check map for cover maybe.... don't complain if you get artie'd if you sit in the middle of the map for 2 mins without cover.
    - When in doubt you ARE spotted.
    - MOVE after shooting
    Calling yourself Michael Wittmann in WoT is about as creative as calling yourself Gimli in WoW. Still there are hundreds of them! I fear for humanity....

  • #2
    Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

    Agreed with everything. People who call arty overpowered (ok, maybe except T8) have not really used it. As long as you stay in cover and on the move, you should be as safe from them as you are that heavy tank your engaging.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

      I could honestly care less about the semantics and miniscule methods about reducing the amount of arty fire you take. Artillery is OP in WoT simply because it exists. The fact that an enemy player can engage me without me being able to do anything about it is just frustrating as hell, especially in a tank "sim". Yes, WoT is not a tank simulator, but the concept of pinpoint accurate arty that can do a crap-ton of damage and score criticals (fire & tracking come to mind) is so damn unrealistic and goes against all the other realism values that the game upholds. Even modern artillery can't accomplish what this arty can.

      Cimex, your points make it sound as if arty fire is almost avoidable if you play the game correctly. This is bull****: the victory requirements & spotting mechanics force you to be engaged by arty.

      Originally posted by Cimex1105 View Post
      - Check map for cover maybe.... don't complain if you get artie'd if you sit in the middle of the map for 2 mins without cover.
      - When in doubt you ARE spotted.
      - MOVE after shooting
      Most arty pieces can engage targets moving at full speed or ones that are making slight turns. If you're making harsh turns, then chances are that you have no hope of effectively engaging the real enemy (enemy tanks). If you're moving slowly back and forth (my preffered tactic) the arty often still tracks you with splash damage, which can quickly lead to your doom.

      Originally posted by Cimex1105 View Post
      - We are dead if a Light/Med rushes us.
      Sorry, but this is just wrong. Arty is still pretty effective at close range if it is in a camping position. Yeah, if multiple meds are attacking arty, it will be screwed, but that can only be accomplished once the team has managed to take out at least half of the enemy's tanks.

      Originally posted by Cimex1105 View Post
      - We can see only what our teammate show us.
      - We CAN blindshot enemies, but that has nothing to do with us being overpowered. Just don't sit in the same spots all the time.
      Due to the limited number of maps as well as the chockepointy nature of many maps, it's kind of hard not sit in predictable spots. Chances are, if you're not in a bush or behind some type of cover (while actively trying to engage the enemy) you will be exposed to alot more than just arty. To effectively engage the enemy players are often forced to "sit in the same spots all the time"

      Honestly, I've played a little bit of arty, and I was thoroughly disgusted with how easy it was. I wasn't that effective, but that simply was because I didn't have the skill of dedicated arty players to pull of all of the bull**** shots. Arty just doesn't belong in the game nor does it balance the overall nature of the games in any way. Artillery just shouldn't exist.

      EDIT:
      Sorry, but how can you claim that arty is not "almighty" and then post this as well:

      Originally posted by Cimex1105 View Post
      Many people who have never played arty or not very often have no idea of how many possible gamewinning/-losing decisions an arty-player has to make during a round.
      Last edited by Googol; 06-03-2011, 12:41 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

        Originally posted by Googol View Post
        I could honestly care less about the semantics and miniscule methods about reducing the amount of arty fire you take. Artillery is OP in WoT simply because it exists. The fact that an enemy player can engage me without me being able to do anything about it is just frustrating as hell, especially in a tank "sim". Yes, WoT is not a tank simulator, but the concept of pinpoint accurate arty that can do a crap-ton of damage and score criticals (fire & tracking come to mind) is so damn unrealistic and goes against all the other realism values that the game upholds. Even modern artillery can't accomplish what this arty can.

        Cimex, your points make it sound as if arty fire is almost avoidable if you play the game correctly. This is bull****: the victory requirements & spotting mechanics force you to be engaged by arty.
        Really. You know, I read the above and every point you stated applies equally well to non-artillery.

        How many times have you been spotted and killed by a tank which has not been spotted? Often times more than one tank. ;)

        How many times has another tank caused criticals to you and perhaps a fire?

        How many times have you been popped by higher tier tanks, perhaps in a single shot?

        The differences are that most artillery is less accurate than tanks, causes more damage relative to its tier, and it can engage from long range.

        I believe players don't like it because it makes positioning and movement far more important than they might be comfortable with. An especially big bummer for those big hulking heavy tanks that move slow as molasses but take a zillion hits to kill (even from arty). Or the player that has found a great firing position and sits like a log until arty finally zeroes in and nails him (also applies to arty BTW when opponents are doing counter battery).

        I will agree with you Googol that Cimex does contradict himself and overstates the importance of arty in general. Just like with any tank in the game, a smart player can make all the difference and each vehicle has their role. Hate arty if you like but you can take efforts to mitigate its effect as per the original post.

        And lastly, realism? Forget about it. This is a game and we could talk all day about unrealistic aspects of it and the compromises that have been made for game play. :)

        Bernout

        |TG-MD6|

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

          Ok, I give you the point about the contradiction - at least in part. The emphasis in the sentence was on possible gamewinning/losing. But like Googol said this applies to every player. I just should have left this sentence out. Sorry for that - like I said thios post was a copy/paste from the official forums where a couple of guys complained about uselessnes of arty.

          Secondly I'm sorry that I forgot to mention I was not talking about low-tier arty. You might be right if you look at them soley. Let me explain in more detail especially concerning higher tiers (5+).

          Concerning "pinpoint-accuracy": Even fully aimed (which takes about 20+ seconds after moving the hull with a 100% crew and improved gun laying drive) you still gott about 66% to 50% miss chance (depending on where exactly you shoot) on a stationary heavy target. That number goes even higher on moving/smaller targets. Sure, if there are 5 tanks in roughly the same spot, chances go up again to at least hit "something". The problem is, most people only realize the arty hits they get, seldom the misses. Remember we have to reload for about 20-30 seconds after a shot.

          Getting rushed by a Light/Medium: I still stand for that. Light tank mybe one-shotted in the right situation. But try to defend against a t6+ medium a couple of times and you will start crying. You are not able to one or even two-shot one of those except if you are VERY lucky (Hitting one of those nasty T-54's in my GW Panther costs them about 10%-25% HP). They are perfectly capable of even one-shotting T7 arty and some high-tier meds run at speeds that make a light tank blush. Most of the time you will simply get rammed to death.

          Chokepoints/Maps: Yes, they help us. But that is true for everyone. We just need more Maps. Wargaming is working on that. Oh, and on most of maps there are large zones, not just spots, where you are virtually immune to arty if you do it right. A few examples:

          -Himmelsdorf (nearly the entire map is a huge "no-shot")
          -Ensk (about 2/3 of the map)
          -Ruinberg (about 50%)
          -Sand River (The whole area of the dunes)

          If you want map-specific info concerning arty (either where to set up as arty OR where you got good chances not to get hit) feel free to ask.

          Lastly I want to say that I do not just play arty. I drive a t7 med as well. So I know the other side of the coin. In my oppinion arty should not be nerfed or removed. If arty gets removed, invisible TD's shooting out of bushes would be next.
          What SHOULD be done is limiting SPG's per side to one or two pieces.

          Cimex
          Calling yourself Michael Wittmann in WoT is about as creative as calling yourself Gimli in WoW. Still there are hundreds of them! I fear for humanity....

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

            Originally posted by Bernout View Post
            Really. You know, I read the above and every point you stated applies equally well to non-artillery.

            How many times have you been spotted and killed by a tank which has not been spotted? Often times more than one tank. ;)

            How many times has another tank caused criticals to you and perhaps a fire?

            How many times have you been popped by higher tier tanks, perhaps in a single shot?
            Yes, all that you say above is true. The difference, however, between being engaged by arty and being engaged by tanks/TDs is that you have the power to retaliate. When engaged by tanks, there is a clear direction to cover or some type of retreat option. More importantly, however, is that you can engage whatever it is that is engaging you. When engaged by arty, you never know where you're really safe nor can you make an attempt to destroy your enemy. Yes, when engaged by regular tanks, there is a good chance that they will be invisible, but at least you can follow the tracers and either engage or move to safety based on the tracer's origin.

            Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the spotting / detection system. In my opinion, you should never have to run into an "invisi-tank" and any tank should be visible if it is within your line of sight. This would also allow for the removal of those cheesy tracer lines. That being said, I think the only real reason the current spotting system is necessary is to stop arty from being even more powerful than it already is (imagine arty knowing the location of pretty much every tank within the line of sight of friendlies).

            So basically arty has a huge advantage in that it doesn't have to worry about it's safety, even though it can do a ridiculous amount of damage (particularly in the very low tier and very high tier battles). Realism aside, I think this is just bad for gameplay. As you say, arty does make "positioning and movement far more important than" what tank players "might be comfortable with". Yes, arty has to worry about the possibility of counterbattery, but the existence of arty means that they don't have to worry about positioning and movement (in regards to arty) nearly as much tank players do.

            Having to worry about un-engable enemy players that can pummel you, keeping in mind that you are never really safe from them (see first post), while trying to fight the actual enemy just takes away from the core tank v tank gameplay IMO. Arty is something that makes players rage constantly, which I think is enough evidence that it has negative effects on gameplay. I hope this sheds some light on why so many people hate on arty. I also certainly wouldn't be opposed to tweaks, such as limiting the arty to one or two per side as you suggested.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

              just cut the gun range by 50%-60% and make arty get closer instead of firing from one cap to another. If you want to be able to shoot over hills and hit people, you give up the option of being unreachable by the enemy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                Originally posted by Googol View Post
                Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the spotting / detection system. In my opinion, you should never have to run into an "invisi-tank" and any tank should be visible if it is within your line of sight. This would also allow for the removal of those cheesy tracer lines. That being said, I think the only real reason the current spotting system is necessary is to stop arty from being even more powerful than it already is (imagine arty knowing the location of pretty much every tank within the line of sight of friendlies).
                I always assumed the spotting system was necessary in order to simulate a larger field of play and make scouting relevant. Otherwise it seems to me that light tanks in particular would be made next to useless.

                Having to worry about un-engable enemy players that can pummel you, keeping in mind that you are never really safe from them (see first post), while trying to fight the actual enemy just takes away from the core tank v tank gameplay IMO. Arty is something that makes players rage constantly, which I think is enough evidence that it has negative effects on gameplay. I hope this sheds some light on why so many people hate on arty. I also certainly wouldn't be opposed to tweaks, such as limiting the arty to one or two per side as you suggested.
                I understand the frustration and limited arty in battles is certainly a great idea.

                What I think most people don't understand from an arty players perspective is really how long it takes to get maximum accuracy plus the very low rate of fire. It really doesn't take that much to screw up your shot; this includes the fact the target can still move (or stop) while the shell is in the air. These factors of course get proportionally worse the further away you are from the target. Also, the high damage sounds good but arty still needs multiple shots to kill the big boys and the smaller tanks which can be 1 shotted, driven by smart players, are next to impossible to hit. There really is that dependence on the team to get the spots and it's also your team which has likely limited the target's maneuvering options and provided an easier shot. Of course some maps contribute to that as well as you've mentioned.

                The bottom line for me is that arty is in no way overpowered. As a tank player you just need to be aware of when you've been spotted and move. Sometimes that's possible and sometimes its not but that in itself has nothing to do with the arty itself. Personally I think it adds extra depth to the game and is a nice change of pace to play.

                Bernout

                |TG-MD6|

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                  So I humiliated myself today and put together a video, showing some of the not-so-godlike things an artilleryman experiences. Please keep in mind everything showed in the video was recorded today in a 3-4 hour gaming session. No "best-of's" from closed beta times or such. And yes, of course it's subjective again. Or do you want me to record a 4 hour video and post that? :P

                  WARNING: The music in the video contains the f-word. Remove your kids from your speakers befrore playing. Still, the music rocks.



                  Regards,
                  Cimex
                  Calling yourself Michael Wittmann in WoT is about as creative as calling yourself Gimli in WoW. Still there are hundreds of them! I fear for humanity....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                    Originally posted by Mach10 View Post
                    just cut the gun range by 50%-60% and make arty get closer instead of firing from one cap to another. If you want to be able to shoot over hills and hit people, you give up the option of being unreachable by the enemy.
                    Sorry didn't see that one at first because of "shortness".

                    If you cut range of arty by 50-60% you will have about 66% range of a t6+ tank. Now that doesn't make sense at all. Sorry.

                    EDIT: typos..... i hate my keyboard.
                    Calling yourself Michael Wittmann in WoT is about as creative as calling yourself Gimli in WoW. Still there are hundreds of them! I fear for humanity....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                      Oh how I hate so called copyright infringements. Sorry, had to remove the video because of the soundtrack.....
                      Calling yourself Michael Wittmann in WoT is about as creative as calling yourself Gimli in WoW. Still there are hundreds of them! I fear for humanity....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                        IDK, after playing for some time, I believe the TDs are nuts. I will say that it does suck to be destroyed by something you cannot see, be it a SPG or TD. I have been checking to see what kind of tanks have been getting me, to my surprise what I thought were SPG hits were actually some TD hiding in a bush.

                        I would say sure limit the SPGs to 2, but also limit the invisible TDs to 2.......



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                          On invisible td's... I believe this is actually an artifact of the spotting system that people don't seem to consider. I don't mean the tanks appearing out of thin air issue (Which I don't really notice anymore). But it works like this, as a regular TD player, I usually set myself up a couple of feet behind a bush. *Not* in the bush. This means that I am relying on my teammates to spot the enemy for me, but I can fire with impunity without being spotted myself. Thus the invisible TD.
                          It's not what you know,
                          It's not who you know,
                          It's what you know about who you know.


                          [TG]BlackBart / [TG]FatalCure

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                            Despite not being particularly angry at the inclusion of SPGs in matches, I have to admit that I give a cheer when the matchmaker places me into a round with no artillery players. Yes, arty is difficult to play. No, its not overpowered. Yes... it still sucks to be on the receiving end, and while you can play a certain way to avoid artillery, it isn't avoidable.

                            The arguments and rage against artillery is similar in nature to "snipers" in FPS games.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: We are not GOD (artillery for ppl who want to defend agains artillery)

                              Originally posted by KoopaTroopa View Post
                              The arguments and rage against artillery is similar in nature to "snipers" in FPS games.
                              Aren't TDs & Invisi-TDs more like snipers though? In FPSes, when engaged by a sniper (assuming you don't die), you usually know the direction it is coming from and that the sniper has a direct line of sight on you, meaning you can move to cover much more easily. There is no way to tell, however when or where you are truly safe.

                              I can live with SPGs and certainly practice the many ways that mitigate their effectiveness, but when there are three or more SPGs on one team, it tends to get pretty ridiculous.

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