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  1. #1

    leejo's Avatar

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Here are another 60 some odd stories of citizens defending themselves in the state of Conneticut which the story above comes from. Why don't we hear more about these....hmmm.

    http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

    edit: won't let me link to the stories...just search for the state your interested in.
    Last edited by USN_Squid; 01-05-2005 at 02:19 AM.
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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Quote Originally Posted by USN_Squid
    Here are another 60 some odd stories of citizens defending themselves in the state of Conneticut which the story above comes from. Why don't we hear more about these....hmmm.
    Every month, that's the first column that I turn to when I get my NRA journal. Millions of times each year, guns are used to defend good people from criminals. Almost all of the time, the stories are published in fine print in the back of the newspaper, if at all... I think the NRA's Armed Citizen is probably the biggest reason why I developed the mindset that I have regarding an armed citizenry.

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    This may not be my standpoint, but I've always had a question I wanted to see answered by someone in the NRA: "Shouldn't public citizens leave the defense of thier homes to trained professionals rather than taking matters into thier own hands with a gun?"

    The wording was intentional. And keep in mind I'm not debating either way right now, I just want to see what you think.

    I do kinda wonder why I've very rarely heard of these. I'm sure they don't happen as often in Minnesota but I don't hear anything about it when it does.

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  9. #5

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Quote Originally Posted by HairyNevus
    This may not be my standpoint, but I've always had a question I wanted to see answered by someone in the NRA: "Shouldn't public citizens leave the defense of thier homes to trained professionals rather than taking matters into thier own hands with a gun?"

    The wording was intentional. And keep in mind I'm not debating either way right now, I just want to see what you think.
    The US Supreme Court has ruled that the government is not responsible for defending your home. If you feel comfortable with waiting up to 30 minutes for police to respond to an emergency at your home, then that's fine with me. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be forced to rely on our overworked police forces, however...

    And I take exception to your use of the term "trained professionals". While its true that almost all law enforcement officers are initially trained in the use of their firearm, shooting is NOT like riding a bike. It's a skill that needs to constantly be practiced, and I'm not just talking about simple marksmanship. Most police departments train with their firearms 4 times a year, AT MOST. Many only train once a year. And most of the time, those are simple qualifications where they simply have to stand and shoot at a target. Most civilians that carry guns train more often than that...
    (BTW, I'm one of those "trained professionals" that you mentioned. I go to the range at least once a month on my own dime and am still disappointed in the amount of time that I'm able to find for training...)
    I do kinda wonder why I've very rarely heard of these. I'm sure they don't happen as often in Minnesota but I don't hear anything about it when it does.
    That's why the NRA publishes this column: because nobody publicizes the fact that guns are used to stop crime millions of times every year. Minnesota is no exception...

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  11. #6

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Ok, so I've read a bit about this and I don't agree with the "defending the home" stance, but it's your right, we don't have that right here in Canada, I'm thankful for that. I'm sure lots of guns are used to validly protect people in their own homes, but on the other hand I would pose these scenarios to you fine people.

    1. Your teenage daughter sneaks out of the house in the middle of the night. You think she's sleeping soundly in her bed, and you hear someone "breaking in" in the middle of the night. You see a leg coming in your daughters bedroom window, and promptly blow her away through the curtains.

    2. I think we've all heard the old story about a son coming home from Vietnam, he's in such a hurry to get home to see his mother and father, he rushes straight home beating the letter he sent. He gets home late at night and is shot by his own father who thought they were being invaded/robbed and doesn't recognise his own son he's changed so much and also didn't expect him home so soon.

    3. Or we can all remember the Japanese student who was shot on the front porch of a person when he knocked on the wrong door. He never spoke english, and was trying to get to a house party held nearby. The home owner was well within his right, and even warned the kid to get off his property (who unfortunately didn't understand him).


    I've recently listened to a radio show on CBC a radio station up here that had experts in home invasion crimes, who have stated that the safest thing to do is to defend by isolating your family in a seperate area like a bedroom behind a closed door and making a loud announcement stating in a forceful voice that "the police have been called and are on their way", and try to defend only the area that your family is in and only if they are in immediate danger. A good dog is also 100x more safe and effective in keeping home invasion crimes from happening, than a gun in your home. People will break in to steal your guns, but won't break in if they have to mess with a dog.

    How many crimes have been avoided by a barking dog, compared to crimes avoided by criminals shot in the home?

    The other thing to think about IMO, is the value of my TV or stereo, really worth shooting a theif and taking their life? Not to me, I'll call the insurance company and get it replaced. I'm not willing to live with the fact that I killed some wayward kid, or even an adult for that matter over any worldly possession that I have.

    When it comes down to defending my wife or kids if their life is in danger, I'll do what I can with what's available, and if that means killing an attacker trying to get into our bedroom to kill us, I'll live with that, but that means won't be a gun. I'll leave that up to the police were it can be controlled better. (Maybe down there it takes 30 minutes, up here they normally respond within 8 minutes to a 911 call with multiple cars, fire and ambulance as well, our emergency services are awesome.)

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  13. #7

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Thanks for the response, Ice. I guess those cop dramas where there's always a scene at a shooting range aren't very realistic.

    The scenarios are plausable, Ghost, but unlikely. Take No. 1 for example. No one (competent) would ever shoot at an unknown person in the dark. My guess is you'd turn on a light, yell "FREEZE!", and get a look at them.

    I can't see anyone with that itchy a trigger finger that they're willing to shoot anyone's head off at the first sign of trouble without assessing the situation. Those people are certainly the ones who should not own firearms in any case.

    And the cops don't take half an hour....usually 10-15 minutes.

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    In my judgment, the last line of defense isn't my bedroom door it's my front door. If someone barges in, armed, with two buddies in the middle of the night, they have chosen to disregard my property, my safety, my family's safety, and my home and I will definitely put him down if given the opportunity.

    There are sad stories about people accidentally getting shot but there are so many more sad stories about evil people killing innocents at night in their homes. Had this guy taken your position maybe he'd have gotten shot and maybe he wouldn't have, but it's a fact that the dead guy would be alive today if he hadn't chosen to invade another man's home. THAT is the lesson of this story to me.

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  17. #9

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostintheShell
    Ok, so I've read a bit about this and I don't agree with the "defending the home" stance, but it's your right, we don't have that right here in Canada, I'm thankful for that. I'm sure lots of guns are used to validly protect people in their own homes, but on the other hand I would pose these scenarios to you fine people.

    1. Your teenage daughter sneaks out of the house in the middle of the night. You think she's sleeping soundly in her bed, and you hear someone "breaking in" in the middle of the night. You see a leg coming in your daughters bedroom window, and promptly blow her away through the curtains.

    2. I think we've all heard the old story about a son coming home from Vietnam, he's in such a hurry to get home to see his mother and father, he rushes straight home beating the letter he sent. He gets home late at night and is shot by his own father who thought they were being invaded/robbed and doesn't recognise his own son he's changed so much and also didn't expect him home so soon.
    In both of these instances, the failure to identify your target is the problem. While it's legal to defend yourself in your home, to use deadly force when you're in fear for your life, it's NOT legal to shoot at scary noises. While I'm sure it could be justified by a lawyer, shooting at somebody breaking into your house without first yelling at them that you're armed and that you're going to shoot them if they don't leave. At that point, the son or daughter would undoubtedly identify themselves and the tragedy prevented. These hypothetical situations sound scary, but they never happen.
    3. Or we can all remember the Japanese student who was shot on the front porch of a person when he knocked on the wrong door. He never spoke english, and was trying to get to a house party held nearby. The home owner was well within his right, and even warned the kid to get off his property (who unfortunately didn't understand him).
    Yes, if I remember correctly, this punk started acting stupid at the wrong house. Once confronted by the homeowner, he was aggressive and assaultive. Wrong move regardless of any language barrier.

    I've recently listened to a radio show on CBC a radio station up here that had experts in home invasion crimes, who have stated that the safest thing to do is to defend by isolating your family in a seperate area like a bedroom behind a closed door and making a loud announcement stating in a forceful voice that "the police have been called and are on their way", and try to defend only the area that your family is in and only if they are in immediate danger. A good dog is also 100x more safe and effective in keeping home invasion crimes from happening, than a gun in your home. People will break in to steal your guns, but won't break in if they have to mess with a dog.
    All good advice, but it doesn't replace your right to defend your safety in your own home by any means necessary.
    How many crimes have been avoided by a barking dog, compared to crimes avoided by criminals shot in the home?
    How many kids have to be mauled by dogs before we ban them? If we're going to make certain arguments, let's apply them across the board, please. Dogs are far more dangerous than guns, in terms of how often they send innocent people to the hospital.
    The other thing to think about IMO, is the value of my TV or stereo, really worth shooting a theif and taking their life? Not to me, I'll call the insurance company and get it replaced. I'm not willing to live with the fact that I killed some wayward kid, or even an adult for that matter over any worldly possession that I have.
    I'm glad that you can tell the difference between someone that's willing to invade someone's home that's NOT willing to hurt anyone, and someone that's willing to invade someone's home and is not afraid to kill everyone inside. The fact is, that most of the time a firearm stops the crime without a shot being fired. And most of those times, it never even gets reported to any authorities. Not to mention the fact that most home burglars are repeat offenders that become more and more brazen with every successful job.

    When it comes down to defending my wife or kids if their life is in danger, I'll do what I can with what's available, and if that means killing an attacker trying to get into our bedroom to kill us, I'll live with that, but that means won't be a gun. I'll leave that up to the police were it can be controlled better. (Maybe down there it takes 30 minutes, up here they normally respond within 8 minutes to a 911 call with multiple cars, fire and ambulance as well, our emergency services are awesome.)
    Normally within 8 minutes? That's great. How long does it take someone to cut your phone lines and kick in your bedroom door? If you choose to rely on your government to guarantee your safety in your own home (when you know that they simply can't do that), then so be it. I choose not to gamble with my family's safety like that.

    It's all about personal responsibility. You either have it and understand it, or you don't...

    Read this again, too, please: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=12441 I mean no offense by this, but you appear to be a sheep, content to allow sheepdogs to defend you. That's fine, but don't try to then put a chain around the sheepdogs' neck or you'll find yourself at the mercy of the wolves...

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  19. #10

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    They call it "Home Invasion" for a reason. These scum-bags have gone from just robbing empty homes to killing/assaulting those who live there. The rates of this have been on the rise for a while now.

    I think my dad put it best. His comment was "If I'm home alone and a guy breaks in, I'm grabbing my gun and going out the back. If you and your sister are here, I'm blowing that bastard away."

    I don't ever want to have to kill anyone, no matter how much they deserve it. But if you break into my home with the intention of harming me (why else would you break in when people are home?) then I'm going to play lifeguard and remove you from the gene pool before you do the same to me.

    And I get so tired of the accidental deaths arguement from liberals. Stupid and ignorant (two mutually exclusive objects) people have always found ways to kill themselves or others. Guns just make it a bit easier. Although, if you're worried about statistics: stay away from the doctor's office.

    Best Quote Ever: My friend's dad was lecturing us on gun safety and he made the comment "more people are killed by unloaded guns than loaded ones." Haha, we know he meant "supposedly unloaded" but it was still awsome.

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  21. #11

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Quote Originally Posted by HairyNevus
    This may not be my standpoint, but I've always had a question I wanted to see answered by someone in the NRA: "Shouldn't public citizens leave the defense of thier homes to trained professionals rather than taking matters into thier own hands with a gun?"

    The wording was intentional. And keep in mind I'm not debating either way right now, I just want to see what you think.

    I do kinda wonder why I've very rarely heard of these. I'm sure they don't happen as often in Minnesota but I don't hear anything about it when it does.

    There are 5 pages of MN articles. It won't let me link directly to them, just put in MN to search:http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx
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  23. #12

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    I still stand by my opinions when it comes to defending your home.

    There are other methods to defend, if you feel so afraid that someone is going to attack you in your home I think you have to consider whether those are valid fears or a real threat, and if so then move to a nicer area, or buy a good home security system.

    I just can't see living in fear of being invaded, and sleeping with a gun next to your bed, to me that is homeland terrorism.

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  25. #13

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostintheShell
    sleeping with a gun next to your bed, to me that is homeland terrorism.
    You go too far, my friend. How dare you call me a terrorist because I choose to defend myself against criminals that might invade the place most dear to me, my home! Your choice of words reflects the emotional nature of your argument. It shows that facts and logic will not sway you.

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  27. #14

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    Ghost you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you're showing a pollyanna streak. Your suggestion that one should move to a nicer neighborhood or buy an alarm system reminds me of Steve Martin's advice on how to be a millionaire and never pay taxes. First, he says, get a million dollars.

    Lots of people live in the homes they can afford. Moving to a nicer neighborhood simply isn't an option right away. While they're there, they keep the lawn mowed, clean the gutters, and do the many things that lift their home and their neighborhood up. Intolerance of criminal behavior is one of those things.

    I don't live in fear of home invasion, it rarely crosses my mind, but this is a matter of risk management. I don't put on a seat belt when I drive my airbag-equipped car because I worry that I'll go flying through the window if I don't, and I don't pay for life insurance because I think I will die soon. I do these things because there are certain worst case scenarios that a responsible person should plan for and mitigate against.

    And yes, there is an emotional component. Read In Cold Blood someday and ask yourself if you care to go out like that. I decided a long time ago that I would not find myself in my own home helpless to defend my family. That's the bottom line for me.

    Next time you go for a drive you probably won't fly through the window, and odds are no-one is going to kick in your door. But if you suddenly find yourself with a face full of airbag you'll be happy it's there, and if you find yourself with a house full of bad guys, as this guy in Bridgeport did, you may wish you had something more to hang on to than 8ish long minutes and your forceful voice shouting through a thin, unlockable bedroom door.

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  29. #15

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    Re: Citizen Defends Home

    while the dog argument works to an extent, there are things to consider.

    1) do you want a guard dog? they are more dangerous overall, not as friendly (especially to new people, thus making them a burden with company), and expensive to train.

    2) do you want an alarm? a barking dog will ward off quite a few burglars, but if they want in, they will deal with the dog by killing it. this type of dog (the kind I own) is great for alerting you to approaching persons, is still very affectionate toward small children and strangers, and can be as dettering as a guard dog. the bark of a cocker spaniel (a very affectionate, family friendly, gentle dog) can be as loud and forceful as a doberman. this type of dog, along with a firearm, is the easiest and I think safest all around way to go. the dog is not dangerous, and neither is the gun. a gun in the possession of a responsible, trained, and educated person is no more dangerous than a chef knife is in a master chef's hand.

    I would never thing that in the 5 minutes the police take to arrive, or if I'm lucky, my neighbor to wake up (retired sherrif) that my family would be safe. it is not up to them to protect my family's lives. I do not live in a dangerous area, but I will be ready if the event occurs, and I will NOT hesitate to kill someone that endangers my children or wife. will I feel bad for taking life? nope. will I regret it? nope. will I be proud of my actions? no. I will be proud that I was able to protect my family, but taking a life is never an easy thing to deal with..... there is also the argument that I live near quite a few widows and retirees. while one of them I am sure can take care of himself, there are 5 elderly ladies that I worry about, and I would endanger myself to protect them as well.
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
    The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison

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