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Thread: Sex and Kids

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    Wolfie's Avatar

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    Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFenix
    Sex can be just for sex with no plans to have a kid.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFenix
    Yet Instinct can drive the course of raising a child.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFenix
    Sterilizing someone for getting a woman pregnant (or her as well) is ludicrous.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFenix
    Breeding: God Given/natural right
    Yet people show irresponsibility when raising a kid.

    Got a hypothetical situation for everyone.

    Say a man and a woman are on welfare. She gets pregnent and has a kid. Now welfare is paying for the kids upbringing. Is it fair to expect everyone else to pay for this couple's kid's upbringing? What should be done?

    Personally, I think when this situation occurs the government should step in, sterilize both the man and the woman, and take the child away. The man and woman obviously have shown a lack of responsibility if they plan on bringing a child into this world without being able to support it. Why should we continue to reward such behaviour? Why should I be force to help a couple that obviously does not show enough responsibility? And why should we leave the potential for this couple of bringing another child into this world?

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    TheFeniX's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie
    Personally, I think when this situation occurs the government should step in, sterilize both the man and the woman, and take the child away. The man and woman obviously have shown a lack of responsibility if they plan on bringing a child into this world without being able to support it. Why should we continue to reward such behaviour? Why should I be force to help a couple that obviously does not show enough responsibility? And why should we leave the potential for this couple of bringing another child into this world?
    Problem solved right? What happens when that nameless person is you?

    What about those people down on their luck and the husband (or wife, or both) loose their jobs while she's pregnant? OH, tough for you. We'll take that kid, and perform horribly invasive surgery on both of you because well.... you're poor. Life sucks eh?

    Now, me the Rich guy who this law will "never affect", only has to pay for both surgeries, and the hormonal treatments for the rest of the woman's life. So, instead of paying for a solution that can change over time, I've racked up the irreperable (sp) cost of surgery and medication for a lifetime.

    While I'm not exactly pleased with the current state of the welfare situation, I don't expect anyone to have to give away their kid and anatomy because some pencil pusher says so. I also would expect a law like this from China, not America.

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie
    Yet people show irresponsibility when raising a kid.

    Got a hypothetical situation for everyone.

    Say a man and a woman are on welfare. She gets pregnent and has a kid. Now welfare is paying for the kids upbringing. Is it fair to expect everyone else to pay for this couple's kid's upbringing? What should be done?

    Personally, I think when this situation occurs the government should step in, sterilize both the man and the woman, and take the child away. The man and woman obviously have shown a lack of responsibility if they plan on bringing a child into this world without being able to support it. Why should we continue to reward such behaviour? Why should I be force to help a couple that obviously does not show enough responsibility? And why should we leave the potential for this couple of bringing another child into this world?

    yeah right on Hitler. Jesus buddy, i can tell you have a bit of money and have probably come frome a middle class background or a working class background who wasnt poor. becausethe same kind of steriotyping goes on there aswell. you cannot take away peoples right to have kids and you cannot take away their roight to choose to keep a child.

    irrisponsable or not, if a 15 year old girl was drunk one night and got a kid by accident, does this mean she has to be sterilized. this kind of attitude is dangerous and well something out of the mouth of stalin or hitler.

    infact sorry i dont think it deserves that much of an answer.

    i know that the state bares the grunt of a few who are not given the best start in life or find it difficult to fit into our society. is your country doing poorly because of these people. no your country has one of the largest economies, infact i believe the largest economies in the world and have the highest amount of rich people.

    forgive me if i am wrong but i htought you said in another thread that you were christian, well that is not the charitable attitude the bible does ask you to take. i am not a christian and i am not rich, i am not poor either but when i vote for a governemtn i vote for the party that helps my parent out, they were poor, no they had to save up to be poor and to say that this was their fault because they were irrisponsable blah blah is wrong. and i bet that alot of people on welfare would like to improve their situation, it is a fact of life and one that i have witnessed first hand that some people are given the oppotunity.

    my Father was brought out of school when he was 16 he could easily have gone to college and got a degree but his father couldnt afford that. so he didnt get the chance. due to having chilldren early h never got the chancce again, he was on bvenifit for a while and according to your comment should be sterilized....


    man i am totally surprised at you wolfie and i hope this comment is not comming from your ideology and is just something to spark debate. because i really am surprised.

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFeniX
    Problem solved right? What happens when that nameless person is you?

    What about those people down on their luck and the husband (or wife, or both) loose their jobs while she's pregnant? OH, tough for you. We'll take that kid, and perform horribly invasive surgery on both of you because well.... you're poor. Life sucks eh?

    Now, me the Rich guy who this law will "never affect", only has to pay for both surgeries, and the hormonal treatments for the rest of the woman's life. So, instead of paying for a solution that can change over time, I've racked up the irreperable (sp) cost of surgery and medication for a lifetime.

    While I'm not exactly pleased with the current state of the welfare situation, I don't expect anyone to have to give away their kid and anatomy because some pencil pusher says so. I also would expect a law like this from China, not America.
    absolutly its a sadam policy,

    people rely on welfare when they need it most but the price should not be fertility.

    this is the ideologyu of the rich guy who thinks because he is rich he owns the country... the ruling class gone mad... well this is the thoughts revolutions are made of. christ human rights out the window here.

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    CingularDuality's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Well, you caught two, Wolfie...

    Playing devil's advocate can be fun when it's so eagerly opposed like this, huh?

    Sorry to ruin your fun, but I've got to chime in on this.

    This is exactly the point that I was trying to make in the other thread. We, as regular people, have certain rights that nobody can take away from us. In the United States, they are further guaranteed in writing in the Bill of Rights. Violating these rights is a horrible, horrible thought. Infringing on them with "reasonable" restrictions, is, unfortunately, a necessary evil to protect our society. Keep in mind that "sterilization" is virtually 100% reversible today. This could be "reasonable" to some people. I'm personally disgusted by the idea (although the idea of punishing rapists and child molestors in this manner intrigues me...).

    Think about this and then go back and rethink the analogy that IceCold presented in the other thread.

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFeniX
    What about those people down on their luck and the husband (or wife, or both) loose their jobs while she's pregnant? OH, tough for you. We'll take that kid, and perform horribly invasive surgery on both of you because well.... you're poor. Life sucks eh?
    Well, actually Wolfie said they were both on Welfare BEFORE she got pregnant, his implication being that they either wilfully chose to have and neglect a child without even having the means to support themselves, or were too stupid to prevent it.

    From a practical standpoint, there's no good way of judging that situation, Wolf. They could have been honestly trying to prevent the pregnancy. Having barely enough money to eat rather limits your purchase of contraceptives, and it's really ludicrous to expect them to abstain completely or only practice masturbation.

    I've talked quite a bit with social workers who actually deal with those cases. Yes, government aid can be abused. The actual Welfare program is underfunded for those that truly deserve and need it--probably because of also being drawn upon by people who technically don't--but there is a time limit for drawing upon it just like unemployment. Are you talking about only Welfare or all kinds of government support?

    Because sterilization is permanent, it should be used as sparingly as the death sentence. Yes, it's disheartening to think that by the very nature of sex, irresponsible people breed more than responsible people. No, we can't take away a child or sterilize irresponsible parents unless they have proven to be ROUTINELY neglectful or harmful to the child/children. That means even giving 19-yr-old Welfare Ronnie and his 17-yr-old dependent runaway girlfriend the benefit of the doubt, because maybe once they have that child they will become responsible parents.

    Most importantly, though: being a good parent and being a parent that can afford children are two very different things.

    Now, I think your point is more that unrelated taxpayers are paying for that extra mouth to feed regardless of whether it's a loving and nuturing family or not. That I can't help you with, since it's really part of our whole structure. If you call government aid into question, you also have to start looking at Social Security, health care, people without children paying city taxes for schools they don't use...

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    Geisha's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Hmmm. I think Cing and I are thinking about two different kinds of sterilization (posted at the same time). Which ones are actually reversible?

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Just a Quick FYI if any one cares.

    If you took out student loans while going to school then guess what you were on Welfare. Welfare is a program to give a leg up to people who have hit hard times. It is not suposed to be a way of life and unfortunatley for some it is abused and becomes this way. It is suposed to help you make ends and repair the situation to work your way off welfare. I personally don't think this works very well with the current system.

    Student loans is the same thing though. It is help to pay for something you can't afford so you can become educated and become gainfully employed and self providing.

    Sorry a little off the main subject but it seems some people may be blaming welfare as a problem not realizeing that they may have benefitted from welfare themselves.
    "they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

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    CingularDuality's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarath
    Just a Quick FYI if any one cares.

    If you took out student loans while going to school then guess what you were on Welfare.
    Loans are NOT welfare. Welfare are more akin to grants, but even so, educational grants are specifically given to educate a person, which in turn, is highly likely to improve our society.

    Welfare is granted to people that just have no other option. Whether it's temporary and they're just down on their luck, or whether they're lazy losers that simply don't want to work, welfare is a handout for someone without any likely return on investment for the government.

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    CingularDuality's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Geisha
    Hmmm. I think Cing and I are thinking about two different kinds of sterilization (posted at the same time). Which ones are actually reversible?
    I was thinking in terms of vasectomy/tubal ligation which would have no significant health impact and are over 99% reversible using the latest techniques.

    Edit: actually, come to think of it, I actually only remember hearing the 99% statistic applied to the men. If I have time I'll see if I can find a stat on the reversibility of ligations... I'm certain that reversals are highly successful with women now as well, though.

    Edit again: Hmmm, 95% isn't that far off... I bet that percentage would increase if the original surgery were done with the intent of it being surgically reversible.
    Last edited by CingularDuality; 03-12-2004 at 12:46 AM.

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    CingularDuality's Avatar

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by CingularDuality
    (although the idea of punishing rapists and child molestors in this manner intrigues me...).
    Oh, and Geisha? I was thinking about a rusty old paring knife for this type of sterilization...

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by CingularDuality
    I was thinking in terms of vasectomy/tubal ligation which would have no significant health impact and are over 99% reversible using the latest techniques.

    Edit: actually, come to think of it, I actually only remember hearing the 99% statistic applied to the men. If I have time I'll see if I can find a stat on the reversibility of ligations... I'm certain that reversals are highly successful with women now as well, though.

    Edit again: Hmmm, 95% isn't that far off... I bet that percentage would increase if the original surgery were done with the intent of it being surgically reversible.
    "If a woman changes her mind and wants to become pregnant, a reversal procedure is available, but it is very difficult to perform and requires an experienced surgeon. Subsequent pregnancy rates after reversal are between 20% and 84%, depending on the surgical skill, the age of the woman, and, to a lesser degree, her weight and the length of time between the tubal ligation and the reversal procedure. Not all insurance carriers cover the cost of reversal."

    http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gc=29!gid6=9109

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Ok, let's look at things from a different perspective:

    1. People (yes, even the poor) are going to have sex whether you like it or not.
    2. They are going to have kids.
    3. This law gets passed.
    4. Two people have sex and can't keep the kid lest they go under the knife.

    5. They can't go to a certified doctor because he'll report them to the police.

    They have two options:
    1. Back alley doctor
    2. Coat Hanger

    You think I'm joking? Try like for the poor before abortion was made legal. It was real great. The well-off women would get an abortion due to "female problems" while the poor got butchered in back alleys.

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Thinking about it...

    It wouldn't be so bad to have poor people having children. If the whole of your system beit welfare or other crucial systems a lot less privatised. Look at it from this perspective.

    If you had a central health service which offeres free healthcare to all, poor people would not have to have so much strain put on the little money they have to raise the healthy child.

    If you had a central education system which offered free education to PhD level to all, poor people could get their child to study and become better then they are with great future prospects.

    These two elements are necessary to brake the loop. This is the only way that even poor people on welfare can ensure that their child can become an asset to society. What's more such a chils may be able to avoid the trap of remaining uneducated and poor and living of welfare like his/her parents.

    If you think I am talking about some utopia system that would never work you are wrong, UK or Canade all have free healthcare systems in place. Croatia also has a free education system for all its citizens. and not just a basic education but you get it free even if you wan to get a masters degree. I do not know much about other countries but no doubt alot of them have such central systems in place and I believe that is the one sure way to give poor people a chance to get somewhere or at least to ensure their children can get a good shot at life without falling into the poverty trap just because they come from a poor family.

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    Re: Sex and Kids

    Why don't we sell the kids and put the parents into a concentration camp?

    Is it fair that we pay for a child's upbringing in our society? I think it is perfectly fair and right to do. Perhaps if money wasn't creamed off the state by overpriced contracts given to company's whom happen to have their mate in government then perhaps it would be easier to afford.
    Jex.


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