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Thread: Friendly Fire

  1. #1

    Zek's Avatar

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    Friendly Fire

    I'll try not to ramble on too much this time; I'm starting to get tired of friendly fire. We've been using it for some time and when I think about it I can't come up with any good reasons why friendly fire really improves the experience of this game. FF works well in more typical squad-based games like CS, but NS is a very different experience and friendly fire is a burden here in a number of ways:

    1.) The most obvious is aliens. Dealing with FF with the more typical marine FPS experience is one thing, but aliens are almost exclusively melee species and team damage is just a pain in the ass for them, quite frankly. It is easy to accidentally slip a bite on your teammate when you're piling on a structure, requiring a couple seconds of additional maneuvering which often forces you to sit out in the open because somebody else took the blind spot. New players to the server who aren't used to this frequently irritate their team.

    2.) Probably the most problematic thing though is multiple skulks trying to attack a marine. With marines jumping around like they love to do, it is completely impossible to set yourself up to avoid hurting teammates when you're trying to gang up on a 'rine. This results in one of two things: either you accidentally kill your teammate in the process, possibly giving the marine an easy kill, or you are forced to try too hard not to hit them and thus severely limit your ability to actually deal any damage. Simply put, alien friendly fire severely discourages skulks from attacking together. I can't count the times I've been killed by a marine who I could easily have finished off myself, but another teammate was trying to help and only screwed us both over.

    3.) Even for marines, it doesn't work out as well as in other games when you're fighting against melee-specialized aliens. There's nothing fun about having a skulk or fade in the midst of a group of marines and getting killed because you were too busy trying to aim around your teammates. Certainly that happens without FF, and there's nothing wrong with that necessarily, but I don't see the need for an additional penalty on top of simply wasting your bullets.

    4.) And with all the problems associated with it, what's the benefit? It only hurts alien teamwork, and there isn't much they can do to avoid casualties because of the imprecision of alien attacks. And marines don't really have any choice but to fight aliens at close range, so it's not like it causes them to keep their distance more than normal. An intelligent marine will also realize how wasting ammunition on his teammate's back hurts him, all FF does is penalize his teammates for his mistakes. And realism isn't much of a concern either; there was even an explanation in the manual of why marine bullets have no effect on teammates. So why, exactly, are we using friendly fire?

    Maybe I'm the only one who has a problem with it, but it seems to me that it creates a host of problems and inconveniences and offers basically no real benefits in return.

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  3. #2

    TheFeniX's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    Without friendly fire, we would not have such memorable endings to games.

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    Wyzcrak's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    lmao Fenix.

    I do intend to comment on this, but I'm swamped with stuff personal and professional.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

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  7. #4

    jack^'s Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I think that FF adds a certain something to the server. I remember when we had FF fridays, and the server was jam packed because hardly any pubbers have played with FF, it also gave clanners more pratice. I do not think FF will make or break NS for me, i do not know if it brings more people to the server, and if it does i think it should stay on, unless we have enough regulars to fill the server daily for good games. If you turn it off, it opens to door to the people who do not like FF.. but being one of a few FF public servers i think it should stay.

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    Rampage's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I happen to prefer the FF. I think it makes me play smarter (I know, can't go anywhere but up considering my normal play, but whatever).

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    Zek's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    Marine FF doesn't bother me as much as alien FF. If we had a plugin that kept it specific to marines I'd be fine with it. It's just that friendly fire on the alien side is always a nuisance regardless of how smart you play, and doesn't really offer any significant improvement.

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  13. #7
    Emanon
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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I find it helps people conserve ammo by not shooting people in the back and it also stops players from biting erratically.

    Overall it just makes people play smarter.

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  15. #8
    ImWithStupid
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    Re: Friendly Fire

    Understand your points Zek, but I think we need it for both sides. Marines need to play better than just "spray and pray" - to which I get the impression you don't disagree. To a certain extent you can (and should learn) aim around your buddies.

    I agree that it's annoying, especially to new players that don't realize it, getting bitten by someone coming to help you chomp an rt. For the most part, unless they're a total newb, they do it once and that's the end of it. Rarely have I been in melee trying for a marine and had to deal with FF - I will often back off slightly and let the other have a go before I hop in there.

    I want FF to stay on for aliens for one reason - phase gates. I do't like the ENTIRE alien team around a pg allowing *ZERO* chance for a marine to come through and live longer than 0.000001 seconds.

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  17. #9

    Eclipse's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I personally have not had a problem with any of those points in actual games myself.

    They are very valid points, but, and this is from soley my point of view, it really doesnt seem to hinder actual games. You can easily say just the opposite of the teamwork hindering points as well. Friendly fire just changes how we play the game, in small, but significant ways.

    1.) The most obvious is aliens. Dealing with FF with the more typical marine FPS experience is one thing, but aliens are almost exclusively melee species and team damage is just a pain in the ass for them, quite frankly. It is easy to accidentally slip a bite on your teammate when you're piling on a structure, requiring a couple seconds of additional maneuvering which often forces you to sit out in the open because somebody else took the blind spot. New players to the server who aren't used to this frequently irritate their team.
    Piling on structures doesnt really seem to be that significant of a problem except in the most extreme circumstances (i.e. Suicide rush on CC or IP's or some similar situation) Unfortunetley, basing problems on the most extreme of circumstances fails to look at the larger picture, in which, most of the time massive piling does not really occur. Its very easy for 5 skulks to pile around a single marine resource tower, 4 on the corners and 1 on the top. Its likewise easy to get 4 on a CC or even 3 on an IP.(Although an IP is considerabley hard in the midst of combat) So maybe instead of having 6 skulks on an RT you'll have maybe 3 or 4, munching, whilst the other 3/4 stand guard around the perimeter. Is that hurting teamwork, helping it, or maybe just changing how teamwork works here?

    2.) Probably the most problematic thing though is multiple skulks trying to attack a marine. With marines jumping around like they love to do, it is completely impossible to set yourself up to avoid hurting teammates when you're trying to gang up on a 'rine. This results in one of two things: either you accidentally kill your teammate in the process, possibly giving the marine an easy kill, or you are forced to try too hard not to hit them and thus severely limit your ability to actually deal any damage. Simply put, alien friendly fire severely discourages skulks from attacking together. I can't count the times I've been killed by a marine who I could easily have finished off myself, but another teammate was trying to help and only screwed us both over.
    This all basically comes down to timing your bites, yourself and your buddy certainly do not have to run side by side make a marine sandwich, in fact I would say that that makes the both of you easier to kill. Whereas if you both take a side of a hallway and either zig-zag down the hall, or just do basic sidestepping, thats 2 individual targets instead one. Once your in the kill zone dont both go after him at the same time, communicate with him, a simple "I'll go in first" or "You go in first" can prevent most FF situations, either your giving up the intitiative or taking, risking not getting res or dieing. And if your in a chaotic melee, which happens often enough, just dont blindly bite everything, wait for an opportune time to strike. Again this is just a change from what could be done, which would probably be a blind fury of teeth and claws piling on a marine.

    3.) Even for marines, it doesn't work out as well as in other games when you're fighting against melee-specialized aliens. There's nothing fun about having a skulk or fade in the midst of a group of marines and getting killed because you were too busy trying to aim around your teammates. Certainly that happens without FF, and there's nothing wrong with that necessarily, but I don't see the need for an additional penalty on top of simply wasting your bullets
    .

    My memory could be off, but I think this was one of the main reasons we put FF on. A lot of us were sick of getting a surprise jump on a group of marines, only to not stand a chance because the marines had no penalties whatsoever of emptying their entire clips into eachothers backs and legs, resulting in a very low probability of survival on the clever alien's part. Likewise we felt it was ridiculous how an alien team could just pile on a structures and have to worry about any harm to themselves.

    4.) And with all the problems associated with it, what's the benefit? It only hurts alien teamwork, and there isn't much they can do to avoid casualties because of the imprecision of alien attacks. And marines don't really have any choice but to fight aliens at close range, so it's not like it causes them to keep their distance more than normal. An intelligent marine will also realize how wasting ammunition on his teammate's back hurts him, all FF does is penalize his teammates for his mistakes. And realism isn't much of a concern either; there was even an explanation in the manual of why marine bullets have no effect on teammates. So why, exactly, are we using friendly fire?
    I dont think it hurts alien teamwork at all, changes the rules most definatley, but it certainly doesnt remove any chance of it at all. I'd say that all it really hurts is removing a chaotic skulk-twister of death running all over eachother and the marines holding their mouse button down to get in as many chomps as possible. And while it is argueable to its teamwork effect, I think its safe to say that that kind of playstyle is not what TG is about. On top of that the actual number of team kills I saw when I played last was incredibly low, like maybe 1 or 2 total on a normal round.

    Why are we using friendly fire? Because, collectivley as a server, we all agreed that it would enhance the gameplay of the server by forcing ourselves to use our brains instead of blind instinct in combat. As marines would could no longer rely on shooting all over our teammates to save them, we had to act smart. As aliens we couldn't rely on stacking ontop of everything and anything to kill it, it didn't ruin our games or our ability to work as a team, it simply changed a few of the parameters to make it (and I hate to use the word because it doesnt accuratley describe what I'm trying to say) realistic. Which, however many months ago is what we decided we wanted. Now? Things maybe have changed, and you guys may be getting sick of it, I was just fine with it when I was on leave, and appreciated the fact that I had to use my brain in combat with fellow teammates; as for everybody else, thats their own decision to make.

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  19. #10

    bobislongenough's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    Frankly FF > you, end of discussion.

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  21. #11

    CingularDuality's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I don't play NS, but Eclipse's post seems right on... I understand that there's an explanation for bullets not hurting Marines in the storyline, but TG has always been about teamwork. That includes not shooting/chomping your teammates.

    Just my opinion from the outside looking in...

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  23. #12


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    Re: Friendly Fire

    Friendly fire on marines promotes watching where you aim. Good players tend to be very selective in where they shoot once used to FF servers, and become much more accurate when aliens jump into the middle of a bunch of marines. Aliens will always cause some friendly collateral damage in any decent sized melee, no matter the skill of the aliens involved. I've seen lerks and even fades TK'd during CAL matches, most notably during the CAL Omega Finals last season. Aliens eventually learn to work around it for the most part, since having more than two aliens chomping on a structure is usually a waste of time anyways, barring special circumstances (phase gates and turret factories mostly). It's better to have one skulk wait in ambush while two chew on a node than have 3 chew on the nodes, and two skulks shouldn't really tk when attacking a node. Other than that or a gangbang on a marine, aliens don't tk all that much. I think you get more out of friendly fire as aliens because marines in a group will normally do a good bit of damage to themselves with larger weapons, and the fact that you can bite the hive to get the team to travel there. That alone is worth it to me as an alien.

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  25. #13

    Yellow-Asterisk's Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    If friendly Fire was removed i would not miss it. but i wount lose any sleep over it either way.
    "The electric Yellow's got me by the brain banana!"

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  27. #14

    _Ender_'s Avatar

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    Re: Friendly Fire

    I'm with Yellow..

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